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I agree completely, Cheryl. The frustrating part is when you know someone you admire who entertains such things, even in entertainment. My wife is an intelligent woman...an environmental lawyer with years of education under her belt...and she reads the horoscopes in Cosmo. We've had many discussions about it, so now when I catch her she simply looks up at me and says with a bemused smile:

"I don't even want to hear it, Jim."

She says she likes to read them but doesn't wholeheartedly believe in them. On the other hand, she admits that in the back of her mind she sometimes wonders if there's "something to all of it." Her mother (another lawyer) and her sister (a doctor) also enjoy reading the horoscopes and discussing them together.

What the hell? I try to explain to her that there's no evidence that the alignment of the planets and stars has anything to do with our personalities or destines...I mean, why would they? She knows this when I put it that way, and explains it's just fun. Most of the time, though, I don't think she gives that much thought to it. It's such an omnipresent part of our culture it's not hard to fall into the mindset that even if it isn't entirely true, there might be "something to it."

I think much of religion and pseudoscience are treated this way by those that...frankly...don't spend much of their time questioning it. Some of them may be unintelligent, gullible, whatever...but I think some, like my wife and her family, just don't spend that much time thinking about such things.

Jim

Greg:

"This is an attitude that I see too often among rationalists. I simply don't see the need to beat that degree of skepticism into another person's head. If you yourself are so vigilantly skeptical that's fine - more power to you. But why the need to piss in someone else's bowl of entertainment wheaties?"

I agree. I try very hard not to do this when the issue is strictly entertainment. I like reading about Bigfoot and UFOs as much as anyone. Yet, I am disheartened when a person whose intellect I respect might believe that there might be "something more to all of it." I hardly browbeat my wife, but it does bother me when she, for example, looks at a bad horoscope for the month and shows slight anxiety because of it.

I won't berate her about it, but I'll try to comfort her by attacking astrology in general. I'll discuss it with her, and try to reason with her.


" However, there are many people who do like "mystical nonsense" purely for entertainment value, and it doesn't stop with horoscopes. What about people who read fantasy novels or play Dungeons & Dragons? Certainly there's more literary mysticism in either of those passtimes than there is in reading the horoscopes in Cosmo."

I couldn't disagree with you more. Dungeons and Dragons, fantasy novels, etc. don't make the claim that they portend future events, or have a true connection with the supernatural. Astrology does, and even those who enjoy such things can be gently reminded that it is nonsense if they entertain the notion that it is anything but. I would never do this with a casual acquaintance, but my wife is my dear friend. She gives me unsolicited advice all the time, so a little quid pro quo is harmless enough.


"Does finding enjoyment in anything besides hard science make one credulous?"

I never said anything remotely like this. Of course not.


"I recommend leaving such people to enjoy their silly and harmless little pleasure. If you don't, atheism can start to look like a religion."

Not sure about thatI see an increasing trend to tolerate mystics, psychics, channelers, and the like in popular media, and I'm sorry if I see it as anything but harmless. Sagan says as much in "Demon Haunted World". When these things become ubiquitous without question, especially when they honestly claim the extraordinary things that they do, they can rub off on even the most level-headed.

I'm no preacherand I would never broach the subject with anyone but my close friendsso these anonymous message boards are an ideal forum. But I must disagree with you on this one pointthere's a HUGE difference between entertainment that is meant solely as entertainment, and things such as astrology and New Age mysticism. The former makes no outrageous claims, and the latter not only doesbut attempts to make money by this same spurious claim of authority.


Jim

Hello All,

Hope you're enjoying "Demon Haunted World" as much as I am.

This weekend, I saw the movie "Signs", which was strange as I had just finished reading Sagan's chapter on crop circles and aliens. I did enjoy the movie, but there were times I had problems with it. I was surprised that the filmmaker actually addressed the hoaxes in southern England, while at the same time pursuing his own angle with such skill.

I don't want to give anything away for those that haven't seen the film, but I will say this: Gibson plays an ex-preacher, who has lost his faith due to a terrible event in his recent past. Effective as this plot thread was in the context of the film, I was disappointed that this film pursued such an overused conceit. I've seen so much of this in Hollywood: loss of faith due to a tragedy or bad event, which is inevitably treated as a bad thing.

Has anyone seen a movie which is unabashedly and unapologetically Atheist? Has anyone seen a film in which a character loses his faith or belief in mysticism, which is depicted as a positive instead of a negativechange?

Why is this trend so prevalent? Why is loss of faith or lack of faith in popular culture always equated with loss of "hope", "imagination" or "the will to go on"?