Howard Bloom chat transcript from March 6th, 2003

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Chris OConnor	Howard Bloom chat transcript from March 6th, 2003		Lead	[-]
Indisputable BookTalk Master Posts: 9511 03/07/03 00:29:57 BookTalk Owner	Tags : None connected: ezChat version 0.50 howbloom:: the lord of the rings trilogy howbloom:: hi, chris Chris OConnor:: Hello folks Jeremy1952 joined howbloom:: hi jeremy MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: yeah, great timing for it, with looming war etc. Chris OConnor:: Hey Howard! howbloom:: i have about 30 books in the computer Jeremy1952:: Hi Dr. Bloom Jeremy1952:: welcome back! Chris OConnor:: Howard - were you watching Bush talk the past hour? howbloom:: one of them is "Hit In The Head By Heavy Metal" howbloom:: no, what did he say? MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I was proud of bush today, he only said "nuclear" a few times MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: er...nucular howbloom:: nuculur MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: yeah, that one howbloom:: so what did he say? Chris OConnor:: Howard - he is giving a speech about why we need to disarm Iraq - preparing for war MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: he's such a Pygmalion Chris OConnor:: I am totally in support of Bush howbloom:: ok, so how do you guys feel Sephirah Geburah:: When do you plan on having "Hit in the head by heavy metal" available to the masses?! I would love nothing more than to read your wisdom on music! Jeremy1952:: I'm guessing he said, we're gonna have a war, and you can't stop me, neener neener neener howbloom:: about the elephant in the room howbloom:: the war Chris OConnor:: Howard - I feel that if we don't address this problem we will pay for it dearly MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I'm hoping it goes perfectly and the Iraqis love us pctacitus:: it's a risk, but it may pay off in the long run MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I suspect it's gonna be a bit messier howbloom:: do you want the bloomean view? Jeremy1952:: I think it is essentially a holy war; pctacitus:: yes Chris OConnor:: Howard - please....yes Jeremy1952:: I think bush is reintroducing... howbloom:: this is a necessary war MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I might not be so worried if someone other than a fundamentalist Christian were in office Jeremy1952:: but I'll wait pctacitus:: how so? howbloom:: we have three choices ahead of us Chris OConnor:: Howard - I think it is too howbloom:: a pax americana howbloom:: a world ruled by America howbloom:: a pax sinica howbloom:: a world ruled by china howbloom:: or a mad max nightmare MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: you mean a world run by multinational corporations through america howbloom:: the possible end of the human race howbloom:: whatever pctacitus:: I'll take option #1 howbloom:: that's another issue howbloom:: and an important one Chris OConnor:: Howard - thats what I fear....an end to the human species Jeremy1952:: I'm all for rule by america... by an ethical, moral america howbloom:: in three to five years some of the most insane people in the world Jeremy1952:: I dont' think its another issue at all Chris OConnor:: Howard - a regression to the Dark Ages or worse howbloom:: will have nuculur weapons Johnny Neuron joined howbloom:: jeremy, it's an important issue that we can discuss Chris OConnor:: hey brad - welcome Jeremy1952:: The issue is, what are we becoming, in persuit of elusive "safety"? MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I fear the mythology of End Times will influence Bush to refuse to help the peace process in Israel. Anyone who signs a peace treaty there is the antichrist according to a large number of Bush supporters. Jeremy1952:: The principles of cooperation.... we are a Defector with a capital D. howbloom:: yes, one of the bloom books that's been waiting in the computer since 1985 is called MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: why would those people be deterred by us imposing regime change on one country though? howbloom:: the return of the middle ages pctacitus:: tell us about it Jeremy1952:: The norms of civilization do not inculde atacking foreign countries howbloom:: hang on while I read what you've all said, there's more on why this is a necessary war MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: they do now, jer Jeremy1952:: Yes.. return to the middle ages... and Bush is leading the charge howbloom:: we can't just impose regime change Jeremy1952:: All this jibber jabber about god in every speach MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: Bush's christian hubris frightens me...it's not just the hawkishness, it's the "God on our side" thing. Chris OConnor:: Howard - wow howbloom:: here's how the evolution of ever larger social forms of organization work howbloom:: they come together ironically on the basis of a monopoly of force howbloom:: the nation state for example howbloom:: originally evolved Chris OConnor:: ok howbloom:: because of a new megaweapon howbloom:: the cannon MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: how about a new organism transcending nations? howbloom:: and because monarchs were able to MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I feel like I belong to something multinational and organic howbloom:: monopolize cannonry Chris OConnor:: How could they do that? howbloom:: as a consequence the kings could batter down the previously impregnable walls cinnamon321 joined MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: how do you monopolize bioweapons? Jeremy1952:: That's part of it. But nation states are inherently more productive than their predescessors howbloom:: of nobles who had their own private armies Jeremy1952:: I think the weapons follow the organization, not the other way 'round howbloom:: monopoly of power led to a larger peace Chris OConnor:: Howard - you must read like a maniac to be so well educated in so many subjects. I suggest you join BookTalk Chris OConnor:: Hey cinnamon cinnamon321:: hi howbloom:: lemme continue Chris OConnor:: ok howbloom:: it's a long thought Chris OConnor:: ok howbloom:: we're where Europe was in 1905 howbloom:: the Kaiser was working like hell MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I suspect centralization of power will break down at some point and an emergent, transcendent "species identity" will come up howbloom:: to take the huge economic power his country had built up howbloom:: and turn it into weaponry that would allow him to outdo howbloom:: the empire-making machinery howbloom:: he'd seen at the age of four howbloom:: when he went to visit his grandmother howbloom:: queen victoria Sephirah Geburah:: Howard - With all your jaw dropping credentials, have you ever considered joining any sort of position in government so you can change the beast from the inside? howbloom:: but his weaponry would be more advanced howbloom:: than what grandma had Chris OConnor:: Good question Sephirah howbloom:: because his nation was sprinitng ahead Sephirah Geburah:: howbloom:: the bottom line is this howbloom:: if Europe had flattened a bit of Germany in 1905 MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I'd rather be a musician than a politician. People respect musicians howbloom:: the war that entailed would have been over in six months howbloom:: instead, there were peace movements MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: is that an argument for overkill though? howbloom:: cries for negotiatiation howbloom:: and when the war came, it lasted what seemed like forever Chris OConnor:: yes, it sure did Jeremy1952:: Howard, when iraq left its borders, it was squashed like a bug howbloom:: instead of losing 200,000 lives--a terrible, terrible thing MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: in hindsight, killing hitler at birth would have been a moral act... howbloom:: the world lost over 20 million Jeremy1952:: And if it tries "empire buliding" again, it will be squashed again. howbloom:: over 19 million lives could have been saved howbloom:: if there had been a preemptive war Jeremy1952:: There is no question that Hitler should not have been appeased, when he began to attack. howbloom:: the same thing came up in 1936 Jeremy1952:: I don't want to live in a world of "preemptive wars", howard. howbloom:: when Hitler took over Czechoslovakia MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I worry that we're going to apply "brute force" to a problem requiring finesse Chris OConnor:: Bloom - I see your logic...what you are calling for takes strength and foresight howbloom:: the world cried out for diplomacy howbloom:: for peace Jeremy1952:: It is the meta-norms of civilzation that ultimately improve humanity ZombieHatesYou joined Chris OConnor:: Hey Zombie howbloom:: for salving germany's wounds, addressing its legitimate concerns MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: yeah, game theory gets complex here..it might not work to apply lessons from the past in a linear way to the present... howbloom:: in 1936 hitler was bluffing pctacitus:: This is basic game theory for politics howbloom:: he didn't have the militar force to back up his deeds Chris OConnor:: Michael - I'm sure there are similarities ZombieHatesYou:: Hey howbloom:: he had, instead, pacifists and peace movements howbloom:: and a propaganda machine MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I don't see this as nazi germany...it's more like a tentacled monster howbloom:: if the west had taken him on pctacitus:: but there's always someone irrational who wants war Jeremy1952:: Exactly. And by running "god" up his flagpole, Bush is defecting from the game howbloom:: in 1936 it would have been a two month war ZachSylvanus joined howbloom:: instead it was a war that killed over 20 million ZachSylvanus:: sorry I'm late pctacitus:: even though you gain more from peaceful cooperation MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: do you think we'll have to bomb north korea too? Jeremy1952:: So, who else attacks whom, once we open the floodgates? howbloom:: preemptive war, that hateful phrase Chris OConnor:: Pctactitus - True, but this war doesn't seem to be such a wat Chris OConnor:: Hey Zach howbloom:: once again could have saved tens of millions of lives howbloom:: this time around it won't be so easy Jeremy1952:: You have just justified attackign anyone you think is really reaaly bad... which means that the arabs are entirley justified howbloom:: the weapons will be nuclear Jeremy1952:: in attacking the US and isreael, right? howbloom:: they already are MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I think our morale will be greatly damaged if we do things in the wrong way...it's not just power that is a factor, it's what forms of power we can accept using with a clean conscience pctacitus:: This war resembles what Phillip Bobbit calls the Long War Chris OConnor:: Yes, I'd like your opinion on N. Korea...I am rather comfortable in our ability to deal with Iraq. Jeremy1952:: Becuase they think we are really really bad... howbloom:: someone has to assert a primacy, a monopoly of power MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: to me, it's like a cancer. You can't cut out the tumor...you have to use something subtl howbloom:: or we will have nuclear weapons hurled at us from Pakistan, from howbloom:: Libya, from MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: saddam is more like a tumor, but al qaeda is something else pctacitus:: it will keep going until all opposing ideas are crushed completely howbloom:: Korea MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: but how does asserting power prevent anything? howbloom:: and enough nuclear weapons being tossed around in the Mediterranean area NaddiaAoC joined MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: if biological weapons become cheap and available to groups without states? Jeremy1952:: Yes. Bush had skilllfully distracted milllions from the fact that he is powerless against the real enemy Chris OConnor:: Someone has to play the role of the Alpha male...in the pecking order howbloom:: to wipe out humanity NaddiaAoC:: Hi folks howbloom:: yes Chris OConnor:: Hey Cheryl howbloom:: the alpha male is the key to social peace MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I see everyone reacting to an apocalyptic fantasy and accelerating it in the process Chris OConnor:: Bloom - I think I'm in agreement with you Jeremy1952:: So do what israel did... we have intelligence that they are building a breeder reactor? Bomb the damn thing howbloom:: and he uses force and persuasion and caring to win his place howbloom:: another example, two Sephirah Geburah:: Oh! Michaelangelo.. Excellent last comment... Jeremy1952:: Ah, persuasion. Now that would be nice howbloom:: to assert his primacy, Alexander the Great utterly destroyed a city or two MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: so do you think the US, by playing alpha male, can inspire Arab alpha males to suppress terrorism in their own countries? howbloom:: it was hateful howbloom:: morally disgusting Chris OConnor:: Howard - But the Alpha male must have a well-defined code of ethics howbloom:: but it worked MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: there was a movie about the president destroying Baghdad to send a signal howbloom:: and Pericles ushered in the Golden Age of Athens with an atrocity Jeremy1952:: We already destroyed "a city or two", Howard. MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: but I'm not sure we'd be safe after that. States would avoid using nukes...but individual groups? pctacitus:: Deterrence, good flick howbloom:: flattening a city that tried to wiggle out of the Athenian league Jeremy1952:: Remember Hiroshima and Nagasaki? MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: it might split the american culture in half howbloom:: now we have to do that not because MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: and cause a civil war here Jeremy1952:: The firebombing of Dresden? howbloom:: Iraq is a huge menace, it's not MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I think if we used nukes against a city, it would split our society down the middle Chris OConnor:: Michael - I think what Howard believes is that we must behave like the lead dog and demand our way...and self police our behaviors howbloom:: but because we have to do something that sounds childish and stupic howbloom:: stupid MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I understand the theory howbloom:: we have to set an example MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: it's something I've thought about before howbloom:: an example Kim Jung Il howbloom:: will pay attention to MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: we have to be the craziest nigga on the block. Chris OConnor:: Jeremy - this is true MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: that's the theory howbloom:: an example Osama will pay attention to MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: how does this work in the inner city though? howbloom:: that Quaddafi will pay attention to Jeremy1952:: Oh yea, Osama's paying attention. Chris OConnor:: Howard - exactly...he is scaring the hell out of me MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: the math might be similar, use power in gangs as a model howbloom:: the messagi is this--disarm or we will disarm you Jeremy1952:: Like the attack on Afghanistan made him stop, right? MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: what if we can't find you and you're suicidal? howbloom:: ok, I have been so busy typing I haven't been able to read Chris OConnor:: Jeremy - they forced him to run...they have disempowered him to a degree ZachSylvanus:: I'm tempted to think that we don't have much to worry about from Korea, because of China Jeremy1952:: And the message to ther rest of the world is: we can no longer be trusted to play by the rules howbloom:: give me two minutes to read what you've said, ok? Sephirah Geburah:: Everybody take 2!! Go get a soda or some water! MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: sure pctacitus:: ok Chris OConnor:: Bloom - sounds good Chris OConnor:: This will make an awesome tran***** Chris OConnor:: LOL Sephirah Sephirah Geburah:: pctacitus:: a little disjointed though Jeremy1952:: We responded to his attack; we took out ten of his people for every one of ours MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: When you're done reading, I'll share a flash poem I made with words from Global Brain...you have the flash plugin? Chris OConnor:: I am very afraid of N. Korea right now. Chris OConnor:: Michael - OMG Glory Matthews joined ZachSylvanus:: I don't believe China will allow N. Korea to do anything drastic Jeremy1952:: Idont' think he will learn a single thing from the US attacking a soverign nation, except maybe that he was right MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I've decided to be afraid of everything. It seems prudent howbloom:: i'm afraid of korea too Chris OConnor:: Hey Glory - you're late. Please stand in the corner for 30 minutes. Thanks. howbloom:: yes thye poem, i do have flash MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: www.soulaquarium.net/art/bloom/ Johnny Neuron:: My take is North Korea is just saber-rattling Chris OConnor:: N. Korea is behaving irrationally...without provocation Chris OConnor:: Johnny - I sure hope pctacitus:: game theory again Johnny Neuron:: They don't want to be blasted to the stone age Glory Matthews:: Chris, pfffft! You should be honored, I just got back from the hospital. Jeremy1952:: Without provoction? I hardly think so ZachSylvanus:: Without provocation? MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: read the other day that Daniel Ellsberg was a game theorist when he worked at RAND Jeremy1952:: First of all, we promised not to demonize his country Jeremy1952:: then asshole Bush comes out with the "axis of evil" slap in the face Chris OConnor:: Michael - very cool! ZachSylvanus:: The agreement was, they shut down their nuclear reactors, we send them fuel. ZachSylvanus:: We stopped sending them fuel howbloom:: who made that poem--ah howbloom:: michael Jeremy1952:: Then we prepare for a war of agression against iraq; what are the other nations ZombieHatesYou:: That was very cool, Huahua. MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: it's my fault ZombieHatesYou:: Err...Michael. howbloom:: it is, excuse my language, utterly fucking gorgeous howbloom:: m8i MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: thanks zomb ZombieHatesYou:: MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: thanks howard Jeremy1952:: who we , rather bush, deliberately insults supposed to make of that? howbloom:: michael, what do you do for a lving? Johnny Neuron:: Jeremy: true, but I think NK has gone a little farther than Bush in terms of propaganda MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I'm a budding web designer howbloom:: I want to do more things like that myself Chris OConnor:: Jeremy - Yes, this is what triggered the N. Koreans to do what they're doing...but it is irrational. Bush had no idea they would act so crazy howbloom:: I've turned the whole history of the cosmos into poetry MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: waiting for my girlfriend to move here from sydney so we can start a business Chris OConnor:: LOL Bloom Jeremy1952:: Law of unindtended consequences MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: howard--I'd be happy to help you out with flash pctacitus:: NK is more like Sparta Jeremy1952:: A good reason to be cautious pctacitus:: closed off howbloom:: severall musicians are talking about making it into music--Joan Jett and David Was Johnny Neuron:: NK has a very long history of doing this sort of thing MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: my email is on my site if you ever want to contact me Jeremy1952:: How , by the way, are they acting crazy? howbloom:: and I want to do a Big Bang Tango stage show Chris OConnor:: Jeremy - yes MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I'd like to see what you're talking about howard Chris OConnor:: Jeremy - hind sight is always 20/20 howbloom:: what you've done, michael, is a step in that direction howbloom:: a very powerful step MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: sounds interesting...it reminds me of a book I read a while back, but I forgot the title MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: thank you howbloom:: have you seen, no of course you haven't its private Jeremy1952:: We are threatening Iraq; we put NK and iraq in the same cateogory; they are preparing an nuclear defense MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: that's the sort of thing I'd like to do more of Jeremy1952:: against a nuclear power that has gone mad. MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: lol MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: well then Johnny Neuron:: Is it defense or provocation? Jeremy1952:: It is the U.S. that is acting "crazy" howbloom:: howardbloom.net/attraction_repulsion howbloom:: ? Chris OConnor:: To those that don't know, Howard Bloom is famous in the music industry and worked with Rolling Stone magazine and stars like Prince and Michael Jackson MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: hey, it worked this time Johnny Neuron:: Sending missles over the ocean on the day of the S Korean presidential inauguration ZachSylvanus:: The thing that concerns me most about this series of wars on evil is the patriot acts Johnny Neuron:: Virtually shooting down our fighter jet howbloom:: well, I was often in the offices of Rolling Stone but I didn't work for the magazine Chris OConnor:: Zach - explain Jeremy1952:: Well, it isn't hindsight yet; the war hasn't started yet. Forsight: we are fucking up the world MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I had an acid trip in my 20's that would have made a great movie. It had science rap as the sountrack ZachSylvanus:: The patriot acts are ostensibly to protect our freedomS ZachSylvanus:: And ourselves howbloom:: our best alley right now in defending our freedoms from the patriot act howbloom:: is a man who has bush by the balls Chris OConnor:: Jeremy - I disagree, but sure hope I'm not wrong. howbloom:: Pat Robertson, my old nemesis Chris OConnor:: Pat deserves to be in prison ZachSylvanus:: The Patriot Act 2 involves overturning Katz vs.....the federal government, I thikn Johnny Neuron:: Really Howard? How so? MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: just tell people Ashcroft ordered a buttload of microchips ZachSylvanus:: er, think Sephirah Geburah:: - Howard - If you could give one piece of advice for someone seriously entering the music industry, what would it be? Chris OConnor:: anyone who dumbs down the general population is a criminal howbloom:: Pat Robertson made two key statements a month or two ago howbloom:: one Jeremy1952:: That's the other thing that scares the shit out of me; suppose we win the peace as well as the war... but have howbloom:: look at the violence in the Koran, stop papering it over pctacitus:: arrest all the teachers then howbloom:: and two Jeremy1952:: turned into a theocracy by then cinnamon321:: I agree Chris. NaddiaAoC:: Yeah, the general population is dumb enough. howbloom:: our civil rights have never been in greater danger Chris OConnor:: Jeremy - Yes, I am worried about that too ZachSylvanus:: Howard, that's not really a viable argument Johnny Neuron:: Look at all the violence in the Bible Jeremy1952:: If we destroy our liberties to win a war, what have we won? MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: the bit of poetry at the end of your attraction page is verra nice howbloom:: we must protect them for all we're worth Chris OConnor:: Cinnamon howbloom:: yes, the bible is one of the most violent books around ZachSylvanus:: We can't argue that they're evil because of their bible Chris OConnor:: Bloom - I very much agree MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I want an army of mimes at my disposal ZachSylvanus:: Ours isn't any better pctacitus:: there is a book on the Battles of the Bible cinnamon321:: The general population is ignorant, not stupi. howbloom:: so is the founding story of western civilization--the Iliad and the Odyssey Chris OConnor:: lol Michael howbloom:: and so is the founding story of inida howbloom:: the Mahavarata Chris OConnor:: Bloom - I've only read some of both pctacitus:: don't forget Hesiod Howard howbloom:: all are filled with genocide MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: how do you maintain control in a fluid chaotic system? howbloom:: with the demonization of other human beings Johnny Neuron:: Howard: how do you feel about the posturing the US is taking in relation to the other great powers such as Germany, France and Russia? Chris OConnor:: Julian James posits that our species lacked consciousness at the time of both pieces Jeremy1952:: I've found cascade works well, Michael howbloom:: systems are hierarchical at every level of the cosmos MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I want to get at the root of projecting evil in all people... MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: jeremy--explain howbloom:: animate and pre-animate Chris OConnor:: yes ZombieHatesYou:: I'm quite hestitant to call Pat Roberston an ally of mine. I think he's got other things moving him...Things I'd personally not want around me. MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: what cascade are we initiating exactly? ZachSylvanus:: afk a few minutes.... howbloom:: and right now we need what some of you guys have said Jeremy1952:: To control a chaotic fluid system. Pour in a little cascade. MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: the end-timers scare me in general Chris OConnor:: what was that? howbloom:: the craziest niggah on the block Chris OConnor:: hmmm howbloom:: the alpha male Chris OConnor:: ahh MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: cascade bleach? lol howbloom:: on a global basis Chris OConnor:: explain Howard howbloom:: so we can continue an incredible progress we've made NaddiaAoC:: Me too, Michael. MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: when rock stars rule the world, we'll be fine howbloom:: via cell phones and the www MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: politicians trying to be rock stars doesn't work for me howbloom:: we are so global it's amazing howbloom:: and we're about to become even more so MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I got a book called Smart Mobs...need to read that Chris OConnor:: Howard - if we could conquer the barbarians our species could do incredible things...ohh..and also conquer mysticism howbloom:: my friends who marched for peace a week ago cinnamon321:: laughs at the thought of a politician trying to be a rock star Jeremy1952:: Yea! David Bowie for president! Vote for Clinton 'cause he plays the sax howbloom:: were amazed and exalted howbloom:: by the fact that they were marching simultaneously in 60 cities MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: cinnamon, they DO. Politicians use PR consultants who study what makes entertainers popular...then they apply that to themselves. Chris OConnor:: Howard - mob mentality MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: nodding at howard howbloom:: they were living off the fruit that hierarchical violence produces howbloom:: peac howbloom:: peace MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: that's the premise of Smart Mobs howbloom:: relax the hierarchy too greatly MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: groups organizing spontaneously NaddiaAoC:: LOL Jeremy Chris OConnor:: Bloom - wow...excellent point howbloom:: and we will have an end to cell phones the www electricity howbloom:: social organization cinnamon321:: Michael, I know, I was merely having a thought of the stereotypical poltician in kiss garb singing. howbloom:: stores and groceries howbloom:: let me tell you the worst case scenario howbloom:: or one of them pctacitus:: ok howbloom:: oki? MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I was wondering for a while if the species has some kind of spontaneous organizing program that causes a breaking open of the tribal identity and a larger sense of family MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: ok howbloom:: you are Osama MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: lol ZombieHatesYou:: I knew Michael was Osama. Chris OConnor:: Howard - I'm in complete agreement. I'm a bit of a pessimist though...and fear we will never succeed in controlling the rampant idiocy of the masses. I feel our downfall is inevitable MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: no, don't go blowing anything up for me thanks howbloom:: you know that you are building your stardom, your influence howbloom:: via pr ladyfractal joined ladyfractal:: Good evening all! howbloom:: and you know that the biggest pr stunt you've pulled MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: hi fractal Johnny Neuron:: I tend to agree Chris ZombieHatesYou:: Hey Frac howbloom:: is the destruction of the world trade center cinnamon321:: hey frac howbloom:: ok? pctacitus:: yes howbloom:: following this? pctacitus:: yes MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: he wants a revolution in pakistan Chris OConnor:: ok ladyfractal:: Hey Michael! Hey Zombie. Chris OConnor:: I'm with ya howbloom:: your next step is this Chris OConnor:: Hey Ladyfractal Chris OConnor:: Jeremy1952:: Howard is expoinding "worst case scenario", fractal ladyfractal:: Hi Chris. howbloom:: nuke twelve major cities in the united states ladyfractal:: thanks jeremy. NaddiaAoC:: Hi Lady howbloom:: basically eliminate the usa Chris OConnor:: Howard - we would be in the Dark Ages overnight howbloom:: turn it into a glowing wasteland to set an example howbloom:: to show that you are Osama the Great howbloom:: that God is all powerful Chris OConnor:: And this "worst case scenario" is a very real possibility pctacitus:: that would crash the world economy overnight howbloom:: and that nonbeleievers should tremble at your feet Chris OConnor:: pctactus - very true Johnny Neuron:: Israeli newspapers reported this morning that Osama bin Laden has been captured pctacitus:: kill tens of millions howbloom:: you do not have to worry about nuclear fallout or nuclear winter howbloom:: why? Sephirah Geburah:: Ha! That could never happen! We where promised to have a missle defense shield! (hehe... Yes, im being sarcastic) ladyfractal:: johnny: that hasn't been confirmed anyplace Jeremy1952:: if he could have done it, he would have done it. No way he would have settled for jet fuel if he could have gotten hold of nukes howbloom:: because you have Allah on your side Johnny Neuron:: lady: true howbloom:: and to quote one of Osama's alleys, this earth Chris OConnor:: Johnny - Hmm...I'll believe that wheh I see his head on a stake howbloom:: is a mere speck of dust in Allah's eye MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: Alternatively: you are a fundamentalist Christian with the best of motives...things get sticky and you feel compelled to use a nuclear first strike... howbloom:: it is expendable pctacitus:: if you die you go to paradise anyway howbloom:: next step MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: as believe the right wing christians...God will give us a new earth pctacitus:: right? Chris OConnor:: Howard - You're making me want to read the Koran/Quran howbloom:: in Islam these days the big subject of conversation is the reconquest of Europe Chris OConnor:: ...just to understand howbloom:: you see, God promised that Islam would triumph howbloom:: in two major places Jeremy1952:: Yea, the difference, as Michael implied, is that Bush actually has nukes ladyfractal:: howard-- how dangerous do you think it is that all three monotheistic faiths seem to be driving all-out for war and at least two of those three have nukes? howbloom:: Constantinople and Rome Chris OConnor:: Howard - and the Koran clearly states that conquest of infidels is Islams destiny MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: book religions really poisoned the planet...I keep telling them it's idolatry...but they just...don't...lisetn AvatarofPower joined Chris OConnor:: Avatar! Chris OConnor:: Welcome howbloom:: it took 700 years before the prediction about constantinople fell, but allah came through, right? ladyfractal:: michael: no, of course not, they're too busy reading their holy books AvatarofPower:: hiya chris howbloom:: and now allah is bound to deliver Rome howbloom:: which means all of Europe howbloom:: nuke the us and howbloom:: europe will capitulate MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: this allah character needs therapy DocNancy:: Howard, you need to write all this down and publish it. howbloom:: it will beg for surivival Jeremy1952:: Osama is one dangerous sonofabtich. Terrorists are an infection on the planet. No argument there... so pctacitus:: we need to pull a St Jerome and we write the religious texts then howbloom:: and be willing to live in justic and purity howbloom:: according to god's law sharia Jeremy1952:: we should be fighting terrorists, not picking a target we think we can hit, and ignoring the enemy. howbloom:: and as part of an islamic imperium that's global MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: women will be forced to veil their nipples in public ( Johnny Neuron:: Howard: not all Muslims would agree with these tactics howbloom:: here's another important bit of Osama's thinking MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: Girls Gone Wild will be a thing of the past... Johnny Neuron:: Some are far more liberal and peaceful than that howbloom:: nation states are a barbarous western creation Johnny Neuron:: Dare I say most howbloom:: god says that the umma is universal MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: empathy is universal howbloom:: it is a continuous planet howbloom:: a planet without boundaries MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: it is a conscious planet Chris OConnor:: Jeremy - don't you think Saddam has something planned with his WoMD? MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: osama is on to something ladyfractal:: howard: Oh I see where this is going...which means a Pax Islam howbloom:: living under God's own law Jeremy1952:: Don't know, Chris. MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: chris, a trapped animal will do some crazy things howbloom:: national boundaries separating afghanistan, egypt, syria, malaysia, these are artificial slices MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I'm wondering if Bush is unconsciously trying to provoke attacks against us howbloom:: designed to weakine the ummah howbloom:: in other worlds osamo Jeremy1952:: I think the message should be this: use one, try to use one, and you get slapped like a mosquito Johnny Neuron:: I think the key might be for the US to allign with the more moderate side of the Muslim world MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: use a nuke to kill a mosquito and you may face impeachment howbloom:: osama's interpretation of Islam makes the world one global caliphate howbloom:: Osama, the wireless warriot pctacitus:: what moderate side? Jeremy1952:: But the message that we attack regardless? howbloom:: has a clear, clear vision howbloom:: of a global new world order pctacitus:: Where is it? MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I believe in a species unconscious program that will overrule the divisions of nations and religions...but whether that can stop destruction is another thing pctacitus:: I haven't seen it. Sephirah Geburah:: Damnit... Why in the hell cant we have people like Howard for President?!?!? (sigh) Johnny Neuron:: There is definately a moderate portion of Muslims who are opposed to terrorism howbloom:: so we have the choices of living under an islamic hegemony, one in which most of us here would be dead Johnny Neuron:: I've talked with some of them howbloom:: and pax amercana Chris OConnor:: Jeremy - Saddam is a sick bastard who has lined up his own people and gunned them down....and poisoneed them Jeremy1952:: Oh my god, Sephirah, no way! Johnny Neuron:: Some are US allies howbloom:: or a pax sinica MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: the limbic systems of the world are feeding back NaddiaAoC:: LOL Sephirah ladyfractal:: howard: Laid out like that, it certainly seems to be a very clear vision. I have a question for you... Sephirah Geburah:: hehe pctacitus:: like Saudi arabia? howbloom:: and those of us who try to stop this war as we did in 1905 Jeremy1952:: Yes, Chris, this is true. Jeremy1952:: And? howbloom:: and in 1936 howbloom:: will have blood on our hands Chris OConnor:: Jeremy - we owe it to the Iraqi people to remove the tyrant Jeremy1952:: Oh bullshit. Johnny Neuron:: So you are for a war with Iraq Howard? howbloom:: the blood of between 200 million and six billion human beings MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: that's a moral inversion though...the ones who kill are heroes and the ones who don't kill are killers... howbloom:: that's my speech, now let me read what you howbloom:: 've been saying ladyfractal:: howard: okay Chris OConnor:: Ladyfractal - what was the question? MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: what if we trigger something just as bad as what we're trying to avoid? we'll have blood on our hands then too Jeremy1952:: There are dictators all over the world; we've defended much worse, time and again. howbloom:: I know Jeremy is going to totally disagree NaddiaAoC:: Chris: Are you saving this chat periodically? Chris OConnor:: Micahel - should we freeze out of fear? MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: what if the lessons we're learning from history fail to work in a global system that approaches viscosity? Chris OConnor:: Cheryl - yep, no worries ladyfractal:: chris: well, my first question has to do with the three monotheistic religions, two of which are confirmed members of the nuclear club goign to war. MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: linear thinking may not be the trick here NaddiaAoC:: Ok good howbloom:: To answer Johnny's question yes, bring on this war as rapidly as possible MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: we may be playing chess on a Go board howbloom:: despite the fact that I hate war cinnamon321:: according to mass media reports i see that iraqis do not like saddams leadership, but since he is a dictator many of them fear to speak out unless they leave the country. perhaps if we do not go to war they will overthrow saddam themselves. Johnny Neuron:: I agree howbloom:: no killing of a single human being is justified ZachSylvanus:: back, sorry howbloom:: Saddam is a distraction, an example, that's all Jeremy1952:: To say "war on iraq is good for iraqis" ignores the little detail of the 100,000 or more of them who will DIE in the war. ladyfractal:: chris: My second question has to do with with people in the West not understanding that Islam is a fundamentally different culture/civilization and not one most of us would feel good living under. Johnny Neuron:: But I feel that the US must do it's best to not make this a "war against Muslims" DocNancy:: yes, but how does oil enter into all this, and it does. Jeremy1952:: If they wanted to die, they could oppose Saddam themselves ladyfractal:: chris: but I'll hold that one Johnny Neuron:: Boundries must be set; demarcations made howbloom:: hang on a second, let's discuss the iraqis who will di Chris OConnor:: Cinnamon - the problem is every time a coup is attempted Saddam makes such an example of the perpetrators that the whole nation lives in mortal fear of even appearing to be anti-Saddam ZombieHatesYou:: Perhaps I am not following this like I should be, but I'm not sure how bringing on the war with Iraq as fast as possible will in turn harm Osama's 'vision.' howbloom:: saddam has deliberately put his weapons under schools and hospitals howbloom:: one story out of England says that he hired AvatarofPower:: Jeremy.... how could they possibly stand up to the current iraqi regime MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: so will the arab world blame us for civilian deaths?
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Indisputable BookTalk Master Posts: 9511 03/07/03 01:05:20 BookTalk Owner	howbloom:: western experts to build a subjway system under baghdad and is using it to Chris OConnor:: Jeremy - But 100,000 dead now to save 4 million in the long run. I'm not saying I agree, but I think this is Howards point ladyfractal:: michael: you bet they will MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: will the iraqis really be "dancing in the street"? Jeremy1952:: Well, they can't. I'm not saying they should. I'm saying, they'll be just as dead if we kill them howbloom:: shuttle his weapons of mass destruction around on trains ZombieHatesYou:: Of course, Michael...We're the Big Bad Guy... MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: Chris--but how accurate IS that math? Johnny Neuron:: What are the chances of the US using nuclear weapons against Iraq? MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: will we become the evil we fear? will our culture survive that? AvatarofPower:: very, very, very, very slim, Johnny howbloom:: a contact of mine in the State Department, an Islam expert who has spent most of his adult life in Islamic nations MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: moral ambiguity broke a lot of heads open in the 60's Jeremy1952:: The thing is, chris, the 100,000 dead now is almost a sure thing; the assertiion that less willdie in the long run Chris OConnor:: Michael - Approximately 87.3% of all statistics are made up on the spot howbloom:: says that the bomb shelter filled with civilians we devastated cinnamon321:: lol Chris Jeremy1952:: with the war than without it is extremely uncertain howbloom:: was a cover for the bunkers below ladyfractal:: johnny: depends upon whether or not the Iraqi military uses them on US troops and how serious teh casualties are from such an attack. MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I worry about what our actions will do to our culture. The "culture wars" could become volatile. howbloom:: can I throw in another fact about the ultimate Osama scenario? pctacitus:: ok Sephirah Geburah:: Yep! howbloom:: which can happen with or without osama Chris OConnor:: Please do howbloom:: pakist howbloom:: has the Islamic bomb ladyfractal:: johnny: if the Iraqis use them and if there are high casualties, US doctrine dictates answering WoMD in kind Chris OConnor:: Islamci bomb? Chris OConnor:: Hmmm howbloom:: the nuclear bomb all Islam feels is God's gift Chris OConnor:: thats punny howbloom:: to the Islamic world, not just to one country MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: we need to arrest this God/Allah howbloom:: Pakistan also has howbloom:: three submarines Chris OConnor:: Michael - I agree howbloom:: very special submarines NaddiaAoC:: Michael: I agree, but I think you'll have a problem finding big enough handcuffs. ZachSylvanus:: What's your point? howbloom:: stealth submarines, next generation submarines Chris OConnor:: Nuke subs? ladyfractal:: michael: would LOVE to go back and time and slap whoever thought up monotheism upside their foolish head ZachSylvanus:: It's an arms race, Howard, you should know that ZachSylvanus:: Keep up or fall behind MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: you mentioned these scenarios before...I'm wondering what the rest of us chess pieces should be doing in the midst of this global chess/go game? howbloom:: built with French technology ZachSylvanus:: It's merely an evolution of civilizations howbloom:: and it has the shipyard to build more MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: yeah, monotheists don't play well with others ZachSylvanus:: Nobody wants to be the losing party, giving in to selection howbloom:: these are missile carriers and pakistan also has howbloom:: medium range ballistic missiles howbloom:: now imagine that Osam is dead or arrested Chris OConnor:: Howard - are you proposing we add Pakistan to the "Axis of Evil?" MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: most of us won't be able to influence all this very much...but what kinds of things can we do with our little bit of the superorganism? howbloom:: and you are a fierce Osama Chris OConnor:: Ok howbloom:: fan howbloom:: a protege MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: Chris--they will after Musharraf gets assassinated ladyfractal:: howard: are you saying that it is no longer a question of "if" but a question of "when" the united states has a city evaporated? Jeremy1952:: (the very protege that the U.S. helped him recruit, but I digress) howbloom:: you lead his wireless warriors in something that is likely to happen any day now NaddiaAoC:: Monotheism is like King of the Hill. My God can beat up your god. howbloom:: the overthrow of Pervez Musharref Chris OConnor:: Jeremy - you're right though howbloom:: you now have three subs with 10,000 mile ranges MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: monotheism ate my homework howbloom:: you can now nuke any city in America NaddiaAoC:: LOL Michael Johnny Neuron:: Forgive my skeptical ide: but this is the "ultimate" Osama scenario...not the likely scenario; Pakistan remains a strong US ally howbloom:: either from the Atlantic coast Chris OConnor:: 10k is long enough to hit anywhere from the oceans howbloom:: or from the pacific coast howbloom:: yes ladyfractal:: johnny: strong is not the word that I think I would use Chris OConnor:: 27k is world circ I believe MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I say we nuke our own cities in defiance. Sephirah Geburah:: Michaelangelo! You bring up a great question of "What can we do" I suggest we base a long term forum discusion around that.... There are so many beautiful and powerful minds gathered on this website... We just need to establish some goals and focus... Chris OConnor:: Michael - omg howbloom:: and Osams says "we love death more than you love life" Jeremy1952:: And I think it supports my side more than howards anyway... to show that other countries are dangerous; yes; MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I agree seph howbloom:: you westerners are degenerates Chris OConnor:: Howard - exactly...this scares the shit out of me Johnny Neuron:: It was Pakistani officials that brought in the mastermind of the 9/11 attacks howbloom:: you turn your women into prosititutes Jeremy1952:: that is exactly why we have to play nice... why we have to promote cooperation howbloom:: you let them parade their legs on the streets howbloom:: and you are foolish ladyfractal:: johnny: Musharref is playing a very cagey political game because he thinks it will A> keep him in power and B> give him some legs against the Indians NaddiaAoC:: LMAO Michael. You're a nut! howbloom:: you only have two or three children per family MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: in the middle of all these worst case scenarios, I'd like to at least play some fun games with culture howbloom:: we treat our women properly Sephirah Geburah:: I feel so helpless as much as I care about these issues... Chris OConnor:: Sephirah - you have the ability to create a thread about anything you want...and I think we would all like to discuss this further ladyfractal:: johnny: But Pakistan is an ally of convenience MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: we treat our women properly ? howbloom:: we veil them and keep them in the home cinnamon321:: IMHO the problem that people have is lack of exposure to other cultures. I think if more individuals were exposed to people of different cultures and had positive experiences we wouldn't have as many problems. howbloom:: we free them from indecency Johnny Neuron:: But an ally nonthesless Chris OConnor:: (Now how do we get Howard to pop in once and awhile and post? hmmm) ladyfractal:: howard; shouldn't that be "we treat women like property" pctacitus:: The horror and the implacable nature of the Wars of Religion was not only that the soldiers on each side believed Heaven awaited them if they fell in battle, they also believed that they owed it to their adversaries to send them to hell. - Ernle Bradford, The Great Siege: Malta 1565 howbloom:: and we make them pregnant just as god wants them to be Sephirah Geburah:: neat! I will do so Jeremy1952:: Mabye it would be worse, cinnamon. Sephirah Geburah:: hehe AvatarofPower:: exactly Johnny... i think there's a serious differnece between the Islamic Fundamentalist world and the more moderate muslims MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: howard will be magnetically attracted to our group, he cannot resist Chris OConnor:: Cinnamon - I totally agree! MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: he will be assimilated howbloom:: so we have four wives with severn children each Jeremy1952:: Maybe if the west new how fucked up islamic culture really is, there'd be more hate crimes Johnny Neuron:: Avatar: Thank you! Johnny Neuron:: A huge difference howbloom:: and every mother who believes in Allah is willing to sacrifice three of her children howbloom:: as martyrs for allah Sephirah Geburah:: hehehehe and our western culture ISNT fcked up?! AvatarofPower:: BUT... that differernce has the potential to rapidly disappear MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: howard, have you read any of DeMause's stuff? Jeremy1952:: Yea, the moderates who hack children's vaginas up with dullknives Johnny Neuron:: When we slip into the fundamentalist mindset, I worry ladyfractal:: jeremy: that isn't going to happen suga'...most college educated Westerners have NO sense of what they are apart of or what they are tearing down howbloom:: more than willing, she celibratses the victory of their death ZombieHatesYou:: I think when we denounce such things as how the Muslims "treat their women," we are falling into the same trap that we are saying we despise about them.* howbloom:: so if we nuke you and you retaliate, it will be useless cinnamon321:: Jeremy, Islamic culture is fucked up to us because we didnt grow up with it. American culture is fucked up to Muslims who know nothing about it. AvatarofPower:: the moderates who hack childern's penises up, what? MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I heard of an interesting program that connects Israelis and Palestinians by phone howbloom:: wipe out afghanistan, we don't care howbloom:: we can afford to lose 200 million to 400 million people Jeremy1952:: The lovely arabs who murder rape victims and celebrate the rapists ladyfractal:: jeremy: when you have college-educated Westerners, decrying the Enlightenment and saying that scientific rationalism is just one in a number of equally valid ways of viewing the world, you know we're in trouble howbloom:: in order to assert god's will MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: so we threaten to nuke mecca, right? DocNancy left howbloom:: and to do what he has ordered us to Johnny Neuron:: Nuke Mecca? Come on howbloom:: torture you and annihilate you Jeremy1952:: I reject your relativism, cinnamon. there are specific actions which are wrong. howbloom:: two words he has used in the Koran Chris OConnor:: Zombie - good point cinnamon321:: Not all Arabs do. There are more liberal Arabs in many places. MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: hey, some consultant close to Bush once talked about nuking mecca howbloom:: any person who does not abide by those two words is a slacker howbloom:: Allah will never forgive howbloom:: allah demands that you fight and kill on his behalf MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: we need to send internet porn to the Islamic world and expose fundamentalist muslims who download it howbloom:: those who stay behind and wiat pctacitus:: such a kind deity howbloom:: for the West to topple of its own might ZachSylvanus:: No less kind than any deity of our own history ZombieHatesYou:: So, I think I've got this now. This is a matter of God. They think they have God on their sides...that God will protect them. So they have no fear. Nothing we can do to them is going to deter them. Allah demands they kill the infidel... howbloom:: will be damend and will never see the fruits of paradise MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: the knights of the crusades killed to gain forgiveness MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: people will do anything to feel pure Johnny Neuron:: But Howard...among all three great monotheisms you have your right wingers and your left wingers....the left wingers have always been in a minority howbloom:: ok, now let me read your thoughts for a bit cinnamon321:: I do agree that they way rape victims are treated in certain Middle Eastern areas is wrong, I just think a lot of Arabs probably think it is too. howbloom:: i've been typing my fingers off ladyfractal:: zombie: I understand the point you are making...but I have to say that I disagree with it. It may be utterly imperialist for me to believe that women have a right to self-determination, but I cannot back down off of that ideal. MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: let's all convert to islam. Sephirah Geburah:: I remember reading a sobering exerpt in the Lucifer Principle about the Islam culture, and the sleeping giant that it is... When do you believe this giant will wake up, stretch his arms, and get some breakfast? MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: then we can assimilate them ZombieHatesYou:: Frac: I'm not saying I agree with how they treat their women. I am just saying that denouncing that at every turn and insisting you are right...is the same thing they are doing. MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: seph--when we appear weakened Johnny Neuron:: I'm not ready to brandish the Muslim world, en toto, as extremists like Bin Laden Chris OConnor:: Howard - I am very curious if you see in Christianity that same problems that you see in Islam... ZombieHatesYou:: We are no better than they are. It's just our ass on the line, so we must fight for what we think is right. howbloom:: the giant has awakened AvatarofPower:: Sephirah, that giant is going to wake up and realize that maybe an arm, and a foot, and a few other parts are sick and tired of its bullshit, I think... Chris OConnor:: Howard - or is it a matter of "degree?" MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I woudln't brand Germans as evil...their culture just went through a crazy phase. Right now, the islamic cultures and our culture are both in a weird phase ladyfractal:: zombie: Hmmm...perhaps. Jeremy1952:: Of course we are better, Zombie ZombieHatesYou:: I'm just trying to point out that while we believe they are wrong...they believe we are wrong. So how are we any better? howbloom:: and is getting its srength day by day ZombieHatesYou:: It's equal. MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: our own fundamentalists may act up Sephirah Geburah:: I hope Avatar cinnamon321:: I agree Micheal ZombieHatesYou:: Jer: No. I don't think so. Johnny Neuron:: Good point Michael Jeremy1952:: Because they really ARE wrong, zombie. Chris OConnor:: Howard - and the giant is Islam? howbloom:: look, Zombie ZombieHatesYou:: Jer: But they don't think they are wrong. Just like we don't think we are wrong. Do you see what I am getting at? howbloom:: I can speak osama speak because within his framework of belief he is right MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: we need to make some muslim entertainers famous so nobody will want to see them die howbloom:: he is not just right howbloom:: he is courageous Jeremy1952:: Yes, but you are wrong. howbloom:: he is heroic ZombieHatesYou:: Jer: 'tay. howbloom:: he is probably the greatest idealist on this planet today ladyfractal:: zombie: okay, I don't think its equal because they are, in fact, going against a principle of universal...truly universal...human rights. If I understand it correctly, MOST Islamic nations do not allow women to vote and do not see women as human enough to vote MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: inside osama is a screaming infant who wants his mommy to forgive hi8m Jeremy1952:: The wholesale repression of women is wrong. It isn't relativist. It isn't negotiable. howbloom:: he is willing to give up his life for what he believes in ZombieHatesYou:: Frac: Allah says that is the way it works. ladyfractal:: zombie: Our culture went through it and our culture was wrong at that point. cinnamon321:: Shakira is part Arabic, I think but everyone sees her as a Latina and she is marketed that way. MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I'm willing to give up his life too Jeremy1952:: One memeber of the species does not have the right to opress and kill the other gender howbloom:: but if that means the death of free speech, equal rights for women, toleran, pluralism Chris OConnor:: Zombie - I do see your point. howbloom:: cell phones howbloom:: and computers for the masses MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: how do you kill cell phones? Jeremy1952:: So: they think we are wrong for pluralism. We are right, and they are wrong. howbloom:: then I am willing to make a moral jusgement MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: that cat's out of the bag howbloom:: and defend the way of life I beieve in howbloom:: period Johnny Neuron:: So what is the solution Howard? Or IS there a solution? Jeremy1952:: Oh shit, now me and howard are agreeing. AvatarofPower:: hehe MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: howard, what would you say we ordinary folks can do collectively aside from cheering Bush on? Chris OConnor:: LOL ladyfractal:: zombie: I understand what you are saying...but I cannot be a relativist when it comes to issues like viewing women as full-human beings. I just cannot see how there is room to negotiate on that matter. howbloom:: if i were living in Osama's world I would never be allowe to think and write ZombieHatesYou:: I'm not saying I am against this war business. I just want people to recognize what it's really about. Jeremy1952:: Actually at a deeper level I think we do pretty much agree... it is tactics, not objectivs, where we differ. howbloom:: this discussion would not be happening howbloom:: and none of us would be waht we are today MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: the solution is for boundaries to dissolve and a great sacrifice to show humanity why it's impossible to impose boundaries on an emergent system Jeremy1952:: Now wait just a minute, Michael. howbloom:: trying with all our might to contribute through our discusions, our brainstorming and our disagreements Johnny Neuron:: And compromise? MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: or just for people to organize and communicate across boundaries until they understand the Beast howbloom:: the the betterment of humahnity Chris OConnor:: Howard - you should come speak at the Atheist Alliance convention here in FL in april - Michael Shermer and Richard Dawkins will be there. Your views on Islam would make for an incredible presentation ZombieHatesYou:: Frac: Obviously I view women as 'full human beings.' You know me. I'm always blaring about something or another. And no, I do not agree with the way the Muslim women are treated. I just think it would be better all around if people realized that everyone thinks they are right when it comes to this stuff. Jeremy1952:: Where would we be if protozoans hand't imposed boundaries on their genomes? AvatarofPower:: its called a Unified Human Intelligence, Michael ZachSylvanus:: Howard, need I remind you that in the Islamic world, it nurtured and advanced the learning of Greece and Rome for six hundred years, until our own culture forcefully took it from them? MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I think westerners and arabs need to communicate on a human level as well as a strategic level ZombieHatesYou:: Whether they are actually right about the issue is neither here nor there. ladyfractal:: zombie: Okay, I see your point AvatarofPower:: and we're working on it... ZombieHatesYou:: 'tay. howbloom:: Chris--I was invited to one ateist symposium howbloom:: but I ladyfractal:: zombie: I'm sorry I thought you were arguing a slightly different point than the one you were making Jeremy1952:: Zombie, we KNOW everyone thinks they are right. That's why it comes down to tactics. We need to WIN Johnny Neuron:: Zach: these are different times, different interests ZachSylvanus:: agreed Chris OConnor:: Howard - they probably cannot afford you Johnny Neuron:: different Muslims MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: the boundaries dissolve inside so that you can understand how to prevent them from dissolving outside howbloom:: ve been housebound with illness for fifteen years howbloom:: and do all my appearances via video howbloom:: or electronic means Chris OConnor:: Howard - wow...I didn't know. ZombieHatesYou:: Jer: But while you are so hellbent on winning, do you see why they are so hellbent on winning? Jeremy1952:: I'm not opposed to the war because it is morally wrong, I'm opposed because it is TACTICALLY wrong. howbloom:: they were' up for that ZachSylvanus:: It's not the religion that is against learning, etc., it's the leaders LanDroid joined MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: reality is too slow, I like internet ZombieHatesYou:: I never said this war was morally wrong. MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I never meet anyone interesting offline howbloom:: to address the issue of Moslems who disagree with Osama ZachSylvanus:: Leaders that have taken power much like Germany and Hitler, because of the way in which the Islamic countries have developed Jeremy1952:: I'm hellbent on winning BECAUSE they are hellbent on winning. If they were willing to live and let live, so would I! MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: this war is morally ambiguous howbloom:: in the Islamic world, as in Hitler's German world MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: those who can survive moral ambiguity without going insane will have something to offer ZombieHatesYou:: Jer: 'tay. howbloom:: they are not allowed to speak their mind Jeremy1952:: Nope, nope, I didn't mean to imply that you did, Zombie. That was more of a general statement Chris OConnor:: Howard - if you have any interest in making a video presentation at this convention I would be happy to help you with it....I know the people in charge AvatarofPower:: mich: exactly... the internet... universal computer networking is the key to that increase in communication that you're talking about howbloom:: the leaders of moderate pluralist subcultures have been killed ZachSylvanus:: I agree that if it comes down to it, I would rather see them paying the price than us, but I'd rather not think that we're at such a dead end as to be left with that as our only choice howbloom:: nearly every writer who has gotten out of line has literally been murdered ZombieHatesYou:: Jer: 'tay. I know you think I'm wrong...but do you at least see my point, even if you don't agree with it? MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: we need to send bullet proof vests to moderate islamic writers howbloom:: my friends in Islam, the pluralists and moderists I meet with in this bedroom Jeremy1952:: Yes ZachSylvanus:: Much as those who spoke out against HItler howbloom:: have no voice pctacitus:: remember rushdie anyone? howbloom:: no spokesmen ZombieHatesYou:: That's all I really want....for people to see each other's points, even if we don't agree. Jeremy1952:: Actually when you rephrased your position, I think I agreed. ladyfractal:: zach; I'm not sure that we're not at that point...as far as I can tell, the Islamic facists are not interested in compromising with the West AvatarofPower:: being able to link directly to a person's mind and thoughts breaks down all the barriers of WHAT a human is and brings forward WHO that human is howbloom:: they are free to speak because they are here in America, not back home in Bangla Desh or Pakistan howbloom:: we need to free them to speak MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I agree, Avatar howbloom:: which is somithing I'm working on Johnny Neuron left ladyfractal:: howard: have you read Huntington's "Clash of Civilizations" MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: we need to make them fall in love with us through media ZachSylvanus:: Lady: Do you feel justified in compromising at the blade of a sword? Johnny Neuron joined Glory Matthews left cinnamon321:: wb Johnny ZachSylvanus:: Because essentially we're asking aquiescence with a knife at their throats ZombieHatesYou:: Michael: Yes, MTV will bring them over. AvatarofPower:: or at least understand us... howbloom:: I agree with Huntington's idea MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: we are the world's entertainers... howbloom:: yes, this is the biggest choice point of history Johnny Neuron left howbloom:: any of us will see in our lives Jeremy1952:: Well boys and girls, men and women, your honor, members of the jury; if I am to have ANY chance at sex tomorrow, I'd better MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: maybe musicians need to have a video dialogue with Islam ZachSylvanus:: It's a large choice point in history, but I wouldn't say the biggest MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: Springsteen sings "Please don't kill us" Jeremy1952:: go spend some time with my lovely wife, who is at this very moment feeling abandoned ladyfractal:: zach: Perhaps...although I'm not sure. howbloom:: if we mistreat it and make the wrong decisions we may well determine the fate of many generations down the line Glory Matthews joined AvatarofPower:: lol... enjoy yoursef, Jeremy Sephirah Geburah:: Thanks for your time Jeremy! You are fun to read. ZombieHatesYou:: 'Night, Jer. ZachSylvanus:: It's the same choice every set of clashing cultures must make MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: night jer Chris OConnor:: Night Jeremy ZachSylvanus:: Night Jeremy howbloom:: jeremy, g'night Glory Matthews:: night Jer cinnamon321:: night jer Jeremy1952:: See y'all next time! Howard, thanks 1,000000 for coming back, in spite of nags like me Jeremy1952:: : ) ladyfractal:: howard: I'm not sure I fully agreed with Huntington. although he invokes you at the end of his book, talking about how Westerners need to recognize that we are part of Western civilization AvatarofPower:: true, zach... but its the biggest one we'll see howbloom:: thank you, jer Chris OConnor:: Howard - how often do you make video presentations? Jeremy1952 left ZachSylvanus:: Possibly MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I'm part of a species organism, it's not western or american ZachSylvanus:: But to claim it's the Biggest in History is to bastardize cultures that have come before howbloom:: video presentations? ladyfractal:: michael: yes, you are...but at the same time, you really are a Westerner MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: whatever I'm part of, it's emerging globally and not in one place MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: lady--I'm IN the West howbloom:: easy, when someone wnats to hire me to give a speech in Amsterdam MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: not necessarily identified with it howbloom:: they send a videographer Chris OConnor:: Howard - you said you do presentations by video howbloom:: and we ta;e it Chris OConnor:: Ahh howbloom:: tape howbloom:: or we do it live via telephone ladyfractal:: michael: your mindset is very different, I think, than someone from Chinese or Islamic civilization ladyfractal:: michael: your grounding assumptions, I think, are different MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: lady, I'm sure there are people like me over there howbloom:: doing it live via webcam is something I've done but it's primitive at best MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I know I have counterparts Chris OConnor:: A video would be the best method MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: there is a me in Iran, a me in China etc howbloom:: it is so far howbloom:: michael AvatarofPower:: heh... talk to Steve Mann howbloom:: what you're saying is right Chris OConnor:: I don't think the Atheist Alliance has much of a budget howbloom:: so very right howbloom:: but the you in Iraq or the you in Indonesia ladyfractal:: michael: Oh, I'm sure that there are people in other civilizations who are more like Westerners than of other cultures. Hell, you know me, I practice a Japanese interpretation of an originally hindu religion...so there's cross-fertilization howbloom:: doesn't have the freedom to be you MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: the me in Iraq is hiding in a basemenet howbloom:: so much so that, get this Chris OConnor:: Michael - true MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: of course, I'm in a basement howbloom:: the intellectual hear to the Islamic world is Egypt ZombieHatesYou:: Michael: I'll let you out next week...maybe. MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: thanks zomb ZombieHatesYou:: -.o howbloom:: Do you know how many new books are published in Cairo every year Sephirah Geburah:: How many?! howbloom:: in the whole nation of Egypt? howbloom:: 300 AvatarofPower:: million? ladyfractal:: michael: But my grounding assumptions are very different....for instance, that I would turn away from the faith of my parents without too much thought of what they would think about it is, I think, very Western. AvatarofPower:: ZombieHatesYou:: Not very many, I'd wager... Sephirah Geburah:: oh MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: there really should be a way to connect people in Egypt etc. with people here Sephirah Geburah:: sheesh howbloom:: now let's look at Israel howbloom:: it has a population less than a third of the city of Cairo ladyfractal:: michael: you see my point? MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: like a dating service, only for intellectuals ZachSylvanus:: I think it's largely a matter of the audience available to read, as well... MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: or kids howbloom:: wanna guess how many new books Israel publishes? ladyfractal:: michael: that would be interesting howbloom:: 4,000 MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: get kids on different sides to communicate pctacitus:: millions ZombieHatesYou:: I've had close contact with some Egyptians fresh off the boat, as it were. They were completely horrified by me. howbloom:: which means that the huge, enormours brainpower Chris OConnor:: Howard - thats amazing howbloom:: the extraordinary creativity of the Islamic world ZachSylvanus:: What's the literacy rate of the Islamic world? howbloom:: is being squashed, squeldhe, howbloom:: strangled MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: smooshed Chris OConnor:: Zombie - why? howbloom:: the literacy rate is low ZachSylvanus:: And of Israel? howbloom:: so is the standard of living ZombieHatesYou:: Chris: Why were they horrified by me? Glory Matthews:: Zomba, yes, but all it takes is an average westerner to br horrified of one who thinks freely. howbloom:: literacy rate in israel is high Chris OConnor:: Zombie - yea ZachSylvanus:: Standard of living? AvatarofPower:: squelched, mashed, mushed and dashed MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: can Israel survive? howbloom:: the standard of living is the highest in the middle east ladyfractal:: zach; the Israeli literacy rate is in the upper 90's...like most (non-American) Industrial nations AvatarofPower:: butcherd, slaughtered, ripped up and smashed howbloom:: if Israel does not survive I will be very very upse AvatarofPower:: bow ZombieHatesYou:: Chris: Well, a few reasons...I had dyed red hair, a kid and I wasn't married, I smoke, I swear, I talk too much, and I was working a hard physical labor job. ZachSylvanus:: So should we really be surprised that fewer books are published in a society where they're less useful? MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: if any population doesn't survive, I'll feel it howbloom:: however it is living on the edge of a razor blade Chris OConnor:: Wouldn't Israel be conquered in short order if the US were not supporting it? howbloom:: barely haning in there ZombieHatesYou:: They fluctuated between thinking I was the Whore of Babylon to being in love with me. ZachSylvanus:: not anymore, I don't think Chris OConnor:: Zombie - LOL I gues that would do it howbloom:: but remember once upon a time france supplied israel with all its jets ZombieHatesYou:: Indeed. ZombieHatesYou:: You know me. I' m brash. howbloom:: then france sold out for arab oil ZachSylvanus:: They've got enough technology and scientific research that I think they could probably hold their end up fairly well... Chris OConnor:: hehe true ladyfractal:: zach; the problem is that at one point, the Islamic world was THE most enlightened, scientific culture going... howbloom:: and stopped selling weapons to israel AvatarofPower:: 300 versus 4000 is a bit much, though, zach MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: zombie--oh there you go...get a bunch of western women to attract fundamentalist muslim men who are considered pillars of their community....then post the chat tran****s when they ask for cybersex ladyfractal:: zach: then something seems to have gone terribly, terribly wrong howbloom:: here's something else to consider ZachSylvanus:: Not if the relationship in standard of living and literacy is very off howbloom:: there are 1.2 billion moslems ZachSylvanus:: Lady: Western civilization ZombieHatesYou:: Michael: Oh blah. :P ladyfractal:: zach: ? ZachSylvanus:: We've crushed them since we mounted the crusades howbloom:: almost all of them agree that the jews are a curse on the planet Meme Wars joined MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: Zombie--hey, it just might work howbloom:: and that israel is an abomination MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: you could discredit the extremists ZachSylvanus:: They were able to hold on very well, since they were in the middle of the spice road ZombieHatesYou:: They think we are whores, Michael. howbloom:: there are 5 million Israelis MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: we know the islamic extremists are suckers for sex MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: zombie--exactly ZachSylvanus:: And then our shipping routes pulled out the only economic advantage they had howbloom:: do the arithmetic, who wins? MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: you could out them Chris OConnor:: Hey meme Chris OConnor:: you're late! MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: we could resettle the Jews in Texas, I'm sure they'll assimilate just fine ladyfractal:: michael: they really* do...although what I've started doing on Yahoo is asking if Muslim women will chat about sex with any man who asks cinnamon321:: I met someone from Iran once, and she says that there are practicing Jews there. Meme Wars:: So did I miss the guest speaker? howbloom:: Jews? in Texas? MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: course I'm technically jewish and afraid of Texans so maybe not ZombieHatesYou:: giggles Chris OConnor:: Michael - you sure are filled with fancy ideas lol ladyfractal:: michael: its AMAZING how quickly that shuts them up howbloom:: we jews tend to be left wing liberals Chris OConnor:: Meme - Howard Bloom is here now MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I'm a bleeding heart handwringing liberal MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: "handwringing" is the latest epithet ladyfractal:: michael: Jews in Texas? Do they even ALLOW Jews in Texas? they don't eat bbq pork ribs. howbloom:: about the only place in texas where we'd fit in is austin howbloom:: the progressive capital of the state MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: hey, Jews survive (somehow) in florida howbloom:: actually there are jewish texans AvatarofPower:: lol... i'm conservative.... for a hippy... which is to say moderately liberal ZombieHatesYou:: This is driving me nuts. I want so much to be able to listen to what you all have to say, and my kids keep screaming at me. How frustrating. howbloom:: kinky friedman cinnamon321:: There's Jews everywhere hehe ladyfractal:: howard: Austin is the ONLY part of Texas I'll actually cast a shadow ZachSylvanus:: As opposed to the middle of the Islamic world, howard? :P Meme Wars:: I had to do emergency work to my wife's postal jeep, so I missed out. ladyfractal:: howard: sorry, I was being facetious howbloom:: look, we jews have a problem howbloom:: the irish have ireland howbloom:: the french have france MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: we humans have a problem howbloom:: the english have england MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: the christians have america AvatarofPower:: we humans hav e aproblem AvatarofPower:: indeed, michael Chris OConnor:: Zombie - being a single mom is rough howbloom:: and we were tossed out of the postage stamp of land we once had MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: the animists have....um... ZombieHatesYou:: Chris: I manage. Chris OConnor:: Zombie - I once was one. howbloom:: in the same way that the french are wedded to the soil of france Chris OConnor:: lol howbloom:: we are wedded to the soil from which we came MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: the buddhists have hollywood howbloom:: god knows why ZombieHatesYou:: A single mom? quirks brow MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I don't believe in being wedded to soil. I believe group identity is a narrative process howbloom:: and god knows what intinctual thing supports the power of tribal memory AvatarofPower:: howard... modern western cultures are absolutely removed from the land ladyfractal:: howard: I hope you don't mind my saying this...but as a black woman, I almost envy Jews for having a Jerusalem howbloom:: narratives are based on instinct MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I don't necessarily think so... howbloom:: they swirl around instinctual points MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I think there is an instinct to form groups howbloom:: they are based on hierarchy games Chris OConnor:: Lady - Wow...I can imagine you do AvatarofPower:: its the culture that the people are attatched to... its the human constructions ON the land that modern western cultures are attached to MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: but I don't know if jewishness is instinctual. MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: or any other "ishness" MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I think it's just grouping Chris OConnor:: Lady - They have a place to call home howbloom:: have you ever looked at Aristotelian plot structure from an instincual and evolutionary point of view? MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: Jews have a narrative, Palestinians have a narrative MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: they are both victim narratives ZombieHatesYou:: My Zombishness is instinctual. MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: their narratives are very similar MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: they see each other as aliens, but they're brothers ladyfractal:: chris: I have Jewish friends, I've gone to Passover saders and when I've heard "next year in Jerusalem" I understand what it truly means to have a land that is yours howbloom:: the Palestinian narrative was started in the 1960s MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I have no land of my own howbloom:: did you know that what is now called Jordan occupies howbloom:: 75% of the territory once called Palestine MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: victims are victims, they generate a retro-narrative ladyfractal:: brb MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: you can create a thousand years of narrative without there even being a reality to it howbloom:: and do you know how palestinians are treated in that 75% of palestine howbloom:: ? howbloom:: do you know about black september? MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: Palestinians are the Jews of the Middle East, aside from the Jews ZombieHatesYou:: What is that? Black September? Chris OConnor:: Howard - I don't know much of the history of that region...and should read up on it a bit pctacitus:: yeah, like shit howbloom:: 10,000 palestinians under Yassir Arafat pctacitus:: Jordanians massacred palastinians MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I wish people would just realize they are weaving a story and it's killing them howbloom:: were living in Palestine--Jordan howbloom:: yes, you've got it ZombieHatesYou:: frowns MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: there's a point when one's self-narrative unravels and you have to see you are just a member of a species ladyfractal:: michael: but that's not going to happen...people are far too wedded to their memes howbloom:: tacitus, how did you know and can you tell the story MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: lady--it will happen someday pctacitus:: history ladyfractal:: michael: particularly if those memes help them feel special and beats back the demon of having to deal with their own lives howbloom:: well few know that corner of history howbloom:: it never made the headlines pctacitus:: Arafat was too politically powerful ZombieHatesYou:: I will have to read up on that. Chris OConnor:: Michael - I'll agree with Lady....I don't see it ever happening MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: in Ireland, at one point, 3 children were killed by a bomb...their parents were protestant and catholic. Neither side could use them as martyrs. That seemed to break the spell for a lot of people. cinnamon321:: I agree ladyfractal howbloom:: the slaughter of Palestinians by...Palestinians pctacitus:: the king of Jordan had the army kick the PLO out by force MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: nature gave us tribal identities for a reason...perhaps she breaks those open and gives us species identities when the pressure is great enough. ladyfractal:: chris: I'm not saying it will never happen...but I think it will be a terribly long road. There's a rising tide of irrationalism and I don't think we've seen the crest of it yet howbloom:: yes, Arafat's boys were doing what they do best--stealing cars and forcing people out of their homes at gunpoiint pctacitus:: tanks vs rifles Glory Matthews:: Michale, I really identify with what you said ... I often feel not just from my culture, but just human MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I would imagine the blaming of Jews for the Palestinians is partly a product of guilt over how Arabs have treateed them? pctacitus:: who wins? just guess people howbloom:: and there were suspicions that Arafat might want the Jordanian throne MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: tribal narratives are soaked with guilt, that's why I can't have identify with them howbloom:: michael, it would be nice pctacitus:: Arafat wants power? Im so shocked MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: arabs and Israelis and Americans, all thee groups have stories...and guilt is fuelling a big chunk of them Chris OConnor:: Lady - I am afraid for our species. I see ignorance everywhere I turn...and this ignorance is embraced as if its a virtue to not care about self-education howbloom:: if the Arabs felt guilty over the way they've penned up the Palestinians in refugee camps pctacitus:: no wait Im not at all shocked MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: exactly howbloom:: and used them as political pawns MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: if everyone felt their own guilt, they'd stop projecting it howbloom:: but I don't think there's a stitch of guilt about it ladyfractal:: chris: that is exactly what I'm talking about...you and I are on the same page howbloom:: and you're right MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: but guilt makes them feel unconsciously that they deserve to be overwhelmed pctacitus:: of course not MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: so they push and strategize howbloom:: there's no need for guilt when you can blame it on the Israelis MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: and form final solutions pctacitus:: it's war by proxy howbloom:: the jews who secretly run america etc Glory Matthews:: Chris, I am concerned about that too. Chris OConnor:: Michael - the problem is the majority of people on this planet are idiots...and they don't care about their idiocy. MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: and both populations are separated by a gulf of perception Chris OConnor:: Glory - I don't see a solution pctacitus:: the arabs are hoping both sides will kill each other off MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: their narratives ladyfractal:: chris: My housemate, is very well educated and well-traveled...but without realizing the implications, dismisses with a wave of the hand, rationality, logic and science as being 'just another (inferior) way of viewing the world' ZombieHatesYou:: There's never need for guilt when you can blame it on someone else... MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: group identity replaces individual conscience because it's too hard to bear MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: and everyone becomes a robot Chris OConnor:: Howard - Why is it that there are so many jews in political office in the US?
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Chris OConnor	Re: Howard Bloom chat transcript from March 6th, 2003	#2	[url]	[-]
Indisputable BookTalk Master Posts: 9511 03/07/03 01:06:28 BookTalk Owner	howbloom:: group identities are very important MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: jews? try christians! howbloom:: group identities give us our individual identity ladyfractal:: chris: when I tried to explain to her that in some Islamic states, for instance, the accused in a murder can have friends come in and testiy on his behalf and that testimony is counted as evidentiary that is a scary world, she didn't understand it. Glory Matthews:: Chris, people don't want to know, they just want to be sheltered, and we all know this and only extreme circumstances will change that. MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I feel more identified with my abilities and not with a group beyond my immediate family cinnamon321:: My biggest pipe dream for the future would be that humans would gain a species identity as the flow of information between the nether-regions of the world increases and people lose some of their ignorance. Chris OConnor:: Is there any truth to what I've heard of Jews controlling this nation? pctacitus:: chris? MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I feel more like a piece of music than a piece of land pctacitus:: are you ok? ladyfractal:: michael: hmmmm...I understand what you are saying...I've been giving a lot of thought to it as you speak howbloom:: LOL howbloom:: look, music is all about group identity howbloom:: think for a moment MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I know if I were black, and I spent time with black people, I'd form an "authentic" black identity howbloom:: music is used as a flag to show what group you belong to MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: same with jewishness...if I was SEEN as a member of the group, I'd feel their narrative ladyfractal:: michael: But I have to say, I am part of something larger than myself or my family. My personal story, who I am,is inseperable from my being a black American and a child of the civil rights movement. MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: howard--that's why white suburban kids talk ghetto Chris OConnor:: I listen to rap howbloom:: to say fuck you to their parents ZachSylvanus:: you rebel :P Chris OConnor:: I like Tu Pac, Eminem, etc.. Glory Matthews:: Howard, I relate with the music statement more than anything else that has been said tonight! howbloom:: to say we have an identity of our own MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I don't feel connected to all white people just cos I'm white..but if whites were persecuted, then I'd have a "white" identity Chris OConnor:: I also listen to Andrea Bocelli and Sarah Brightman, Al Green, Marvin Gaye howbloom:: yes
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Chris OConnor	Re: Howard Bloom chat transcript from March 6th, 2003	#3	[url]	[-]
Indisputable BookTalk Master Posts: 9511 03/07/03 01:07:28 BookTalk Owner	MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: white kids saying "we have our own identity, and it's black!" howbloom:: michael is right pctacitus:: isn't the music thing in Global Brain? ladyfractal:: michael; LOL!!! howbloom:: opposiiton in the greatest bonder howbloom:: music is another bonder MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I don't feel Jewish, but if I lived in Israel I might howbloom:: the music thing isn howbloom:: 't in global brain howbloom:: it MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: as it is, nobody notices my jewishness so I don't identify with it howbloom:: s part of my fieldwork in music Chris OConnor:: Howard - it is something you should write about someday ZombieHatesYou:: I think our "ethnic" or "cultural" identity is what often gets us into these messes in the first place... howbloom:: it's one of the things I learned helping new subcultures get on their feet pctacitus:: Are you sure Howard? ladyfractal:: michael: well, my 'authentic' black identity is a very different 'black' identity than what gets into the media Chris OConnor:: Howard - or I should say "publish" someday MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: if I lived in a prison and was seen as a criminal, I'd adopt the criminal identity Glory Matthews:: Howard, I would LOVE to read about the music idea. Chris OConnor:: Howard - explain disco then ladyfractal:: howard; disco??!!!!!!! howbloom:: hang on Chris OConnor:: I even liked disco howbloom:: how did Chris OConnor:: I LOVE music MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I think all the "identities" people are coasting on will turn out to be automatic programs which will shock us into a new identity, a species identity howbloom:: Al sharpton's name come up? howbloom:: then we'll do disco MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: those identities are becoming idols, brittle Chris OConnor:: Who didn't like Saturday Night Fever? NaddiaAoC:: Chris: You liked disco? Wow. My whole opinion of you just went down the crapper. ladyfractal:: howard: Yes, briefly...I was saying that my black identity was more like Shelby Steele than Al Sharpton Chris OConnor:: Cheryl - I sure did cinnamon321:: Micheal, we will eventually HAVE to have a species identity. MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I can imagine having a disco identity howbloom:: good for you MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: cinnamon--a lot of people have already glimpsed it howbloom:: I spent six months babysitting al sharpton and Chris OConnor:: I love music....soooooo much. I like bagpipes, banjos, the pan flute MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: when you arent' accepted by ANY group, something happens to you howbloom:: am utterly disgusted at what the media has made of him ladyfractal:: howard: the ONLY reason I would invoke that man is to emphasize the ways in which I am not like him MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: if you are Jewish but the Jewish community rejects you, you become what? pctacitus:: Al Sharpton's campaign would reelect GWB howbloom:: he's a con man and he's been legitmated MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: if you're black but you're gay, are you treated the same as if you were just black? Identity becomes complex. ladyfractal:: howard: not that I have strong feelings about him at all. MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: legitimated lol Meme Wars left NaddiaAoC:: I love music too, Chris, but I have yet to meet a disco song that I like. howbloom:: I do, he's a fascinating guy and extremely charming howbloom:: but a thief howbloom:: ok disco if you're up for it ladyfractal:: michael; I can say, definitely, that you're not. there is a tension between my being black and my being gay pctacitus:: ok Chris OConnor:: Lady - I would love to have a conversation someday about racism...its of great interest to me. MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: Al Sharpton is popular for his ability to get racism publicized when nobody else will touch it ladyfractal:: michael: for a long time I didn't have much to do with the black community because of homophobia howbloom:: gays in the 1950s and 1960s were bashed, beaten when they went on the street Glory Matthews:: Michael, you become Velveta, just like the rest of the ethnic-uncentered americans who struggle for identity. MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: lady--but maybe that tension gives you a way to see through the illusion of both identities? howbloom:: they had no ligeitimate identity in our culture Chris OConnor:: Howard - lets talk disco MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I don't think you have to be "velveta" ladyfractal:: michael: Yes, it does... howbloom:: gay clubs were raided by the police and everyone arrested for being gay howbloom:: this is the background of the disco movement MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I have no real ethnic identification but I identify with art, music, things involving pattern howbloom:: one sunday I got a call from a close friend in the music business Chris OConnor:: Howard! Are you saying disco is a gay thing? MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: howard--so everyone acted gay and that solved the problem! I get it! ladyfractal:: michael: But when I moved to Oregon, and found that this place is white as new-fallen snow, I suddenly feel very black... howbloom:: it must have been 1975 LanDroid joined howbloom:: or 1976 ladyfractal:: chris; no, I understand where howard is going MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: lady--well that I can understand NaddiaAoC:: Hi LanDroid! howbloom:: he was on fire island, a place where gays can quietyl be themselves Chris OConnor:: Speaking of gay....welcome back LanDroid MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: if I moved into an all black neighborhood, I'd feel conspicuously white AvatarofPower:: lol Chris OConnor:: NaddiaAoC:: I was still burping up breastmilk in 1975. LanDroid:: Heh, howdy - been here a while, just quiet...... howbloom:: he said, "meet me at my apartment tomorrow morning" Monday when MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: unless they were all intellectuals ladyfractal:: chris: I hadn't come out yet...but I lived just north of San Francisco and have friends who were out at that time NaddiaAoC:: LOL Chris howbloom:: I get off the seaplane from fire island howbloom:: we met Chris OConnor:: ok howbloom:: he was wildly excited howbloom:: he was a very macho sort of guy Chris OConnor:: macho macho man....(Village People) howbloom:: so was his roommate, zz tops rep in ny and another fiend and colleague of mine ladyfractal:: chris: I was wondering if he was gonna tie the gay rights movemetn to the disco movement...that's the ONLY place where I could see disco having any kind of political consciousness howbloom:: he tolem me he was gay and proud of it NaddiaAoC:: Me too, LanDroid. I'm at work so I'm in and out of the chat. howbloom:: I was very, very surprised howbloom:: then he told me what had been happening during the summer on fire island ladyfractal:: chris; btw. I'd be happy to talk to you about racism at some point Chris OConnor:: I never undrstood being proud of anything you didn't proactively do howbloom:: in the gay community Chris OConnor:: lady - excellent howbloom:: there was a new form of music being imported from ladyfractal:: chris: you can email me if you wish howbloom:: europ howbloom:: it was techno dance stuff with a feverish pitc howbloom:: h NaddiaAoC:: Chris: Me either. That's why I have a hard time with the phrase, "proud to be an American." howbloom:: the gays were gathering every night and dancing their asses of to it MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: where is the gay gangsta rap? howbloom:: empowered by that music, they felt a potent sense of belonging MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: there must be gay gangstas out there howbloom:: a potent sense of identity howbloom:: and they wanted to take that music Chris OConnor:: lady - you should start posting on BookTalk - we could have a great conversation on "The Roundtable" about this...I don't have enough time to do email conversations and alaso participate on BookTalk. I like to keep the intellectual...time consuming stuff on the boards howbloom:: and that IDENTITY howbloom:: global MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: identity=resonance howbloom:: disco was a social movement ladyfractal:: michael: actually gay.com had an article about three months ago on gay rappers howbloom:: a coming out of the closet, and I was being asked to be its spokesman MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: lady--yeah, but gangsta rappers? NaddiaAoC:: Lady: Yeah, you should start a thread about racism on the message board. I would love to discuss it too. ladyfractal:: michael: its still very small...but there seems to be a growing gay hip-hop rap scene howbloom:: the person who would embed it in the culturew AvatarofPower:: all real deep forms of music are social movements.... MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: lady--kewl howbloom:: new gay clubs sprang up on the west side of the village howbloom:: overtly howbloom:: ooutrageously gay clubs howbloom:: no pretending, no sneaking around Chris OConnor:: I've been in a gay club ladyfractal:: michael: well, I'm not sure and I'm not sure I would WANT there to be a gay gangsta' rap scene because I'm not particularly fond of gangsta rap howbloom:: but clothes like you've never seen LanDroid:: No surprise Chris... AvatarofPower:: heh... enjoy yourself chris? howbloom:: skin tight leather outfits, then the macho thing Chris OConnor:: LanDroid ROFL cinnamon321:: LOL Glory Matthews:: lan, heh howbloom:: guys dressed up like the Village People howbloom:: before there was a Village people MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: and gays have more reason than anyone to oppose fundamentalist islamic radicals but they can't join the army howbloom:: two gay guys flew in from France ladyfractal:: michael: to me, it appropriates the worst images of black urban life and elevates them to be THE One True Authentic Blackness MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: pity Chris OConnor:: I wore black leather pants, a leather vest, and a space helmet howbloom:: and suddently found their freedom howbloom:: in the clubs MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: lady--yup ZombieHatesYou:: has minor mental breakdown howbloom:: they were brilliant at making music Chris OConnor:: Hoard - this was in the 70's? howbloom:: they recruited four guys and random howbloom:: yes the 70s MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: here goose, have an identity MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: er..zombs howbloom:: and dressed them the way the guys in the clubs were dressing howbloom:: and called them the village people Chris OConnor:: The Village People Chris OConnor:: yes ZombieHatesYou:: You called me Goose MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: sowwy Chris OConnor:: and they were great I thought howbloom:: it was a celebration of their identity LanDroid:: YMCA! Chris OConnor:: no laughing...I liked them ladyfractal:: howard: so that's how they started! howbloom:: disco was a social movement Sephirah Geburah:: What do you see for the near future of music in general, Howard? howbloom:: a demand to be recognized Chris OConnor:: yes howbloom:: a demand to the end of gay bashing ladyfractal:: howard: so, what do you think about the current gay rights movement? MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: music with intelligent lyrics would be nice Glory Matthews:: Zomb, at least he didn't call you Binary ;P Chris OConnor:: And it seemed to have worked...to an extent LanDroid:: Next musical social movement? Chris OConnor:: tehy came out of the closet howbloom:: so when I worked on music i never worked on rhythm and melody in a vacuum AvatarofPower:: Jam howbloom:: i was always freeing new subcultures the right Sephirah Geburah:: Or artistic and honest lyrics at that... AvatarofPower:: damn hippies are starting to come back.... howbloom:: for new ways to be MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: how would you free islamic intellectuals? ladyfractal:: avatar: hey! I resemble that remark! LOL howbloom:: hmmmm, I'm on ef those damend hippies, circa 1962 MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: they need publicists Chris OConnor:: Howard - I'm a country fan....any opinions on country music? NaddiaAoC:: LOL Avatar. From that photo of you on the MB I think you should be their king. howbloom:: I'm trying to free Islamic intellectuals pctacitus:: hippies again, damn them AvatarofPower:: lol MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: are you a bleeding heart liberal or a handwringing liberal? howbloom:: yoiks, naddia Chris OConnor:: (and please don't say, "yea, it sucks" howbloom:: bear with me if I sound stupid or brash Chris OConnor:: ok howbloom:: but in 1973 I was working with country music Chris OConnor:: ok ladyfractal:: howard: out of sheer curiosity...what do you think of what happened to the gay rights movement AFTER AIDS hit? howbloom:: I hated the music but loved the people howbloom:: the music got no respect, it was like the gay thing pctacitus:: ok howbloom:: so I worked to take it mainstream and it worked howbloom:: but why did I do it? ladyfractal:: howard; I got involved in the movement in the late 80's...and it seemed like we lost a generation of leadership...at least amongst men. howbloom:: for the people, not for the music MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: cos your dog died and your pickup stopped working? Chris OConnor:: Howard - Yes, the people are a big part of it for me. What I like about country music is it is clean...and the lyrics are about things we can all relate to. howbloom:: and the lyrics say that if you are depressed and miserable howbloom:: you are not alone MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: lesbian country is good Chris OConnor:: Howard - what country artists did you work with? howbloom:: there are a bunch of us and we will comfort you ladyfractal:: michael: lesbian country....like whom? howbloom:: Donna Fargo MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: KD Lang maybe? howbloom:: Roy Clark LanDroid:: I like humorous country songs, otherwise can't get past the twang... MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: not sure what's considered country ladyfractal:: michael: ahhh...okay...she's more Jazz now...and the indigo girls aren't country howbloom:: nope, I was asked to take a look at KD Lang Chris OConnor:: Howard - Another thing I like is that country fans are cross-generational. You can like the same songs if you are 12 or 21 or 61 howbloom:: and to give an opinion to a record company president who was thinking of signing her howbloom:: and I hated her Chris OConnor:: Never heard of Donna Fargo howbloom:: so I did not always get things right Chris OConnor:: but that was the 70's LanDroid:: Chris - like the rolling stones? ladyfractal:: lan: LOL ladyfractal:: chris: the Grateful Dead are like that LanDroid:: Hated KD Lang? Chris OConnor:: I am not a deadhead MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: the first bands I really liked were talking heads and Police howbloom:: yes, I must confess ladyfractal:: chris: I am. Chris OConnor:: ahh howbloom:: I hated KD Lang and was sure she would go nowhere pctacitus:: why AvatarofPower:: heh... the jamband social scene is getting huge nowadays, lady ladyfractal:: michael; I LOVED the Police... Chris OConnor:: Howard - she has fizzled out though...a short career AvatarofPower:: and the Dead is back!
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Chris OConnor	Re: Howard Bloom chat transcript from March 6th, 2003	#4	[url]	[-]
Indisputable BookTalk Master Posts: 9511 03/07/03 01:08:26 BookTalk Owner	howbloom:: I helped start a whole bunch of subcultures off--rap, heavy metal, crossover black LanDroid:: I wouldn't buy a disc, but thought KD has a great voice compared to most... ladyfractal:: avatar: Chris OConnor:: Which bands? Chris OConnor:: I ove metal howbloom:: but kd lang resonated with the old country music i'd heard when I was a kid Chris OConnor:: Love Chris OConnor:: Constant Craving is the only KD Lang song I know howbloom:: and I sensed something alien about that music, it was a group identity thing MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: that's the only song I really like lol MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: haven't heard that much of her stuff tho Sephirah Geburah:: Hey! Im gonna toot my own horn! My "band" for lack of better words, has had a local top ten album for more than 7 months, had over 14,000 downloads on MP3.com, consitently sell out local venues, and have talked from everybody from RCA to Warner Brothers about deals... Any suggestions on how we can finnally get this thing going the next step?! howbloom:: I was four yeras old and would wake up at 6am before my parents ladyfractal:: okay I'm gonna blast some Dave Matthews Band and get ready to go have a drink howbloom:: and turn on the radio cinnamon321:: For me, I like a song and I don't really pay attention to the artist. MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: seph--right on...where do you live? ladyfractal:: be well all...namaste MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: bye fractal Sephirah Geburah:: !!! Namaste!!!!!! howbloom:: and it was all country music and farm reports and something inside of me told me cinnamon321:: by fractal Sephirah Geburah:: Sephirah Geburah:: Arizona ladyfractal:: michael: thanks for telling me about this place...this was a Good Thing (tm) howbloom:: that I was a Jewish city kid and that farmers hated me Sephirah Geburah:: Phoenix MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: yeah, I tend to resonate to individual songs, not so much the persona howbloom:: so I hated the music--remember I was only four LanDroid:: Heh, insightful 4 year old. ladyfractal:: howard: pleasure meeting you...I've read some of your works....enjoyed speaking with you. MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: is there jewish rap? ZombieHatesYou:: Take care, Frac Chris OConnor:: Sephira - thats awesome howbloom:: thanks fractal ladyfractal:: zombs: be well suga'...talk to ya later MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: they should have rap competitions between Jews and Arabs ZombieHatesYou:: ladyfractal left Chris OConnor:: Bye Lady ZachSylvanus:: Michael: I've heard HINDI rap>>> MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: sing the narratives MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: yeah, I've heard hindi rap ZachSylvanus:: I'm sure there's Jewish rAP howbloom:: rap competitions between christians and arabs ZachSylvanus:: lol howbloom:: i love it Chris OConnor:: lol MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: maybe a world competition for narrative songwriting Chris OConnor:: lovely howbloom:: you know what I would love? LanDroid:: freestylin... Chris OConnor:: What? MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: aspire to be the spokesman for your identity niche howbloom:: if jews and arabs could live together and enjoy each other AvatarofPower:: penguins? LanDroid:: heh. howbloom:: have coffee together at the cafes Chris OConnor:: How do you feel about Ebonics and rap lyrics? howbloom:: eat dinner together MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: howard--did I mention that phone campaign? howbloom:: talk about the holy sights in hebron Chris OConnor:: Howard - Yes, that would be incredibe howbloom:: make dates to meet each other there MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: they're anonymously connecting Israelis and Palestinians over the phone ZachSylvanus:: We need a powerful Arab Neitzsche to kill Allah howbloom:: i had a bit of that when I was in Israel MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: like a switchboard for peace LanDroid:: how long would that take - less than 1000 years? howbloom:: I'd love to see it as a social norm NaddiaAoC:: LOL Zach MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: it takes a generation, but you have to be willing to go against the ones on your own side who feel the other side is alien MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: because that's guilt talking howbloom:: the Arab world has managed to unite the entire Islamic community around hatred of Israel and of Jews MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: the person who reminds me of my own failures is the person who is most alien to me howbloom:: from Nigeria to Malaysia MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: cos they have a vibe which goes inside howbloom:: Jew hatred is too valuable a political tool to give up MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: they need to role play and be in a situation where they're SEEN as jews MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I think that's what breaks up the trance...being seen as the other side pctacitus:: it gives them something to believe in howbloom:: god, do you mean asking arabs to role play a jewish role? Chris OConnor:: I've never understood it Chris OConnor:: Jew hatred MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: howard--and vice versa howbloom:: I put myself inside the arab mind every day Chris OConnor:: I've never understood hatred of any sort...blind hatred MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: all things come full circle eventually. There's a book by a concentration camp survivor who took LSD with a psychiatrist... howbloom:: I read Osama's speeches word for word MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: he said he saw the Nazi within himself howbloom:: and those of mnay of his allies Chris OConnor:: Howard - that is a great book "The Arab Mind" pctacitus:: in what language? Sephirah Geburah:: Howard, have you considered employing your social engeneering techniques to help a "arab-neitzsche" for example, get off its feet? howbloom:: I'm trying Sephirah Geburah:: How? MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I think you need people who are very fluid in their identification howbloom:: that's why I have meetings in this bedroom with folks with tiels to Bangla Desh and Afghanistan MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: people who can separate the factual narrative from the identity narrative howbloom:: I am trying to help these people find their voice howbloom:: and trying to influence the educational systems in those countries MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: interesting that we can do that, isn't it? sit indoors and communicate halfway around the world howbloom:: so kids are not taught hate Sephirah Geburah:: !!! I would give you a hug if Chris OConnor:: thats the key Sephirah Geburah:: I was there howbloom:: and not taught only about their warriror heros Sephirah Geburah:: hehehe howbloom:: but are taught about their culture heros MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: it's not just teaching hate, it's child abuse...abused kids will adopt angry identities to displace anger at their own parents howbloom:: the ones who innovated and who created new ideas, new empowerments for humanity howbloom:: forgotten heros MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: a lot of it is psycholigical substitution and displacement howbloom:: forgotten role models MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: yeah, Islam produced some great art howbloom:: but role models build the psyches and the passions of kids howbloom:: and stay inside adults, guiding their emotions Sephirah Geburah:: Howard, Do you keep a journal? And if you do, do you think you ever publish it? MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: true...being SEEN in association with the role model howbloom:: I have 300 mb of howbloom:: the grand unified theory of everything in the universe including the human soul Chris OConnor:: Wow howbloom:: it's 3,800 chapters of book material MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: send it over Sephirah Geburah:: !!! I wanna read it all!!! JEEZE!!! howbloom:: I need editors to helpe me put it together MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: should form a think tank to compete with the Heritage Inst howbloom:: so if you know anyone in ny pctacitus:: how much will that cost on amazon? Chris OConnor:: Howard - do you believe humans have a soul? Sephirah Geburah:: Ok do this, right click "My Documents" and click "Share" ok? howbloom:: who'd like to help, let me know MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I'll help with whatever MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: my email is on my website LanDroid:: Came in late - have you chatted about the effect of the upcoming war? U.S. genocide in Baghdad seeding more terrorism? MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I have some free time howbloom:: sould to me means passions so deep that they leap from us like flame in transcendent moments pctacitus:: I'll edit howbloom:: remember, I'm an atheist howbloom:: tacitus, where do you live? Chris OConnor:: Howard - defined as such I have quite a soul MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I like the idea of scientific pantheism pctacitus:: VA MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I think about the soul, but not as an external thing MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: more as a pattern MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: feedback spiral howbloom:: scientific pantheism is part of what we're working on around here howbloom:: a new religion based on science MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I think that's coming ZachSylvanus:: Why bother? howbloom:: one of the books in the hard drive waiting to be birthed pctacitus:: Church of Virus? Chris OConnor:: I never understood pantheism. The cosmos is divine? Meaningless to me. Sephirah Geburah:: THATS IT!!! ALL OF YOU!!! Ponder for the next couple days on how we can help Howard get those chapters into the public hands... His work has already done magic for many people I know, and the more the better... This world needs it, and fast MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: harness that limbig resonance and add some poetry and smart ideas MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: limbic howbloom:: is called The third Testament--the message of science to the human soul ZachSylvanus:: I guess I don't understand why science needs a church cinnamon321:: Some peoples religion is science. LOL MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I think the basic message is "it's all connected" MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: you've seen Mindwalk haven't you? howbloom:: sephirah, thank you for your words pctacitus:: My spring break starts tommorrow ZachSylvanus:: the very idea of a religion based around science implies some sort of dogma howbloom:: can you email me so I can stay in touch with you? pctacitus:: email me and I will edit quickly cinnamon321:: I agree Zach. howbloom:: my email address is howlbloom@aol.com Chris OConnor:: Howard - I think we would all love if you stayed in contact with BookTalk somehow...not sure how. Maybe come back in the future to keep us abreast of your progress in solving the great mysteries of life. howbloom:: or if that's hard to remember, try this howbloom:: howard@howardbloom.net MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: if you send me stuff to read, I'll see if I can come up with some flash poetry based on it Sephirah Geburah:: Chris OConnor:: Michael - One of my favorite movies!!! howbloom:: Chris let's discuss it and figure out a way to do it pctacitus:: I'll be in touch MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: yeah, Mindwalk was good howbloom:: wow, Michael, email me, remind me about the flash poetry, ok? MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: howard--will do MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: that's an L in your email right? LanDroid:: howlbloom@aol.com - like a wolf? heh. NaddiaAoC:: Howard: I would love for you to stay in touch. It would be fun to chat with you again. MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: ok, howl Chris OConnor:: Howard - I would love to see you do something with Dorion and Ann Druyan...something about bringing the beauty of science to the masses. That was Carls passion. howbloom:: tacitus, if you seriously think you've got some editing time, stay in touch, emai me howbloom:: naddia, thank you LanDroid:: Yes, building on candle in the darkness. pctacitus:: I will MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I've always got time, my only client right now is my dad howbloom:: LOL MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: write anytime, I like interesting projects and think tanks howbloom:: ok, guys and ladies, I'm wiped MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: nice to see you again howard MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: always stimulating Chris OConnor:: Howard - Want the transcript emailed again? LanDroid:: Whew! Thanks! Great job! howbloom:: chris, let's see if we can work out another visit and yes, please send a transcrpit Sephirah Geburah:: Thank you SO much Howard for talking with us! You meen so much to so many of us... I cant thank you enough... MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: send me one too chris AvatarofPower:: it was excellent talking with you, howard! ZachSylvanus:: Thanks for taking time to chat with us howbloom:: I will see you all again soon howbloom:: " pctacitus:: thanks Howard cinnamon321:: Yes, thanks for talking to us Howard. Chris OConnor:: Howard - Ok, you can expect the transcript shortly. I always edit for spelling errors to make it read smoother. NaddiaAoC:: Thanks for coming by, Howard. This was definitely a highlight of BookTalk! MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: nice to chat with people not using capslock howbloom left Chris OConnor:: Michael - LOL No doubt pctacitus:: bye, I have an art history paper to write by tomorrow Sephirah Geburah:: Aww.. hes gone.. its kind of like a really good concert ending Sephirah Geburah:: Chris OConnor:: I'm glad to see so many people turned out for this MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: later pc pctacitus left LanDroid:: Whoaaa. Amazing - what did he say, 3800 chapters? Heh... Chris OConnor:: Howard is a great guy....brilliant Glory Matthews:: It's been great to chat tonight, very interesting. Must get to bed now though. G'night! NaddiaAoC:: I am too. AvatarofPower:: yeah, it was a good session, chris Chris OConnor:: Night Glori MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I have to pee. See you in yahoo, chris NaddiaAoC:: Goodnight Glory ZachSylvanus:: g'night glory cinnamon321:: Yeah...3800 Chapters..that boggles the imagination ZombieHatesYou:: Thanks for having me, Chris. MichaelangeloGlossolalia left AvatarofPower:: thats alota text ZombieHatesYou:: I've a lot to think about now. AvatarofPower:: 300mb of text Chris OConnor:: Hey, the transcript will be in "Chat Central" and you all can feel to add comments to the thread ZombieHatesYou:: retreats to yahoo ZombieHatesYou left Chris OConnor:: Zombie - I am sooo glad you came by cinnamon321:: That kind of reminds me of Wolfram's a new kind of science...but Wolframs book is about math Chris OConnor:: Damn she left Sephirah Geburah:: hehe AvatarofPower:: have you read that, cinnamon? Chris OConnor:: Sephirah - and I'm glad you joined. Sephirah Geburah:: Is there some sort of Buddy List system here on Booktalk? cinnamon321:: No.... Sephirah Geburah:: Me to! Thanks again chris! Glory Matthews left AvatarofPower:: ahh cinnamon321:: I would like to be able to understand it someday though. Chris OConnor:: we will have many authors as guests in the future cinnamon321:: I was just comparing book sizes Chris OConnor:: Sephirah - What do you mean by muddy list? LanDroid:: Can we get Lucretius next month? AvatarofPower:: heh... AvatarofPower:: its a biggun Chris OConnor:: Lan - I already have him set up Chris OConnor:: LOL Sephirah Geburah:: I dunno... I met alot of neat people in this room tonight and I want some way to log there names and talk with them outside of booktalk AvatarofPower:: i'm slowly preparing my brain to start digging through it ZachSylvanus:: The forums, Seph Sephirah Geburah:: oh yeah Sephirah Geburah:: silly me.. im new at all this Sephirah Geburah:: ZachSylvanus:: hehe cinnamon321:: Arent most of the booktalk people on yahell? Chris OConnor:: Sephirah - Here is the scoop. You can exchange emails on the forums...and talk outside of BookTalk NaddiaAoC:: Alright folks. I need to go. Nice chatting with you. ZachSylvanus:: g'night cheryl AvatarofPower:: talk to ya later, cheryl! Chris OConnor:: I want to have a BookTalk get-together one day within the year here in Florida Chris OConnor:: Night cheryl cinnamon321:: Good night Naddia Sephirah Geburah:: How many registered users does Book talk have? AvatarofPower:: florida... so... far... away NaddiaAoC:: Goodnight everyone! AvatarofPower:: 62 NaddiaAoC left ZachSylvanus:: Florida is so hot LanDroid:: 62 members! Allriiiight... Chris OConnor:: We have 62 registered users...but I do something to the numbers... Sephirah Geburah:: ? Chris OConnor:: Other EZBoards do not delete inactive people...I do Sephirah Geburah:: oh Sephirah Geburah:: gotcha Chris OConnor:: If I didn't delete people we would have over 100 Chris OConnor:: I delete spammers Sephirah Geburah:: how long has this board been around? cinnamon321:: Spammers? Chris OConnor:: and people who don't come back after doing a "hit and run" cinnamon321:: Hmm, I didnt know anyone who spammed on message boards Chris OConnor:: Spammers are people who come by and post about their message board without even knowing what BookTalk is Chris OConnor:: ...other EZBoard owners cinnamon321:: Yeah, that would be annoying. Chris OConnor:: But the moderators delete those posts right away Chris OConnor:: I wanted to say something Chris OConnor:: We are now reading "Atheism: A Reader".... Chris OConnor:: I plan to invite S.T. Joshi for a chat in 2 months Chris OConnor:: And possibly Carl Sagans widow Ann Druyan Sephirah Geburah:: CRAP! I wish I had money. I would go buy it.. I will try to scroundge up cash... cinnamon321:: Cool ZachSylvanus:: do you think he'll deign to speak to us mere mortals? Joshi, that is cinnamon321:: I'll have to hit the library Chris OConnor:: She would stand in for Carl...who has an essay in this book Sephirah Geburah:: Starving artist Chris OConnor:: Zach - I would bet on it AvatarofPower:: that would be very cool, chris Sephirah Geburah:: I have a big over due fee at the library shame on me LanDroid:: Be sure to tell Jeremy that Howard specifically admitted to being an atheist. Jeremy seems to think he is a theologian, LOL... cinnamon321:: You're an artist sephirah, or a student? Chris OConnor:: Zach - we have a great group here...authors love feedback ZachSylvanus:: true Chris OConnor:: LanDroid - good point Sephirah Geburah:: Im a musician ZachSylvanus:: On the other hand, do we really understand the issues? :P Chris OConnor:: Are you all reading this next book? AvatarofPower:: i'm omnicient, zach... didn't you know? Chris OConnor:: I am looking very much forward to some awesome discussions on it cinnamon321:: Oh cool Seph, do you identify the style of music you play with any of the current genres? ZachSylvanus:: Not only did I know, but I made you say that LanDroid:: Yeah, I just started John Stuart Mill - # 10. AvatarofPower:: i knew you were making me say it... i just went along with it to make you think you were making me say it Chris OConnor:: I wish there was a way to select all of the text in this chat room with one or two buttons Sephirah Geburah:: AH!! CINNAMON I LOVE YOU!!! That was the best way to ask that question!!! hehehe... I have had HUNDREDS of people ask the simple question, "Who would you compare yourself to" Chris OConnor:: LanDroid - damn cinnamon321:: hehe Chris OConnor:: Ok guys...thanks for showing up and making this such a success. Sephirah Geburah:: But, the best way Ihave heard somebody describe our music is "Exotic Industrial Hardcore" AvatarofPower left Chris OConnor:: Howard will come back in the future...you heard him Sephirah Geburah:: It is very spiritual and artistic cinnamon321:: Cool Seph. LanDroid:: What's the website? Chris OConnor:: I am done chatting...I have to copy and paste this whole thread now. cinnamon321:: Good luck with your band Sephirah Geburah:: www.blessedbethyname.com Chris OConnor:: Goodnight guys LanDroid:: Thanks - chekkin it... Sephirah Geburah:: nighty night! cinnamon321: Goodnight Chris
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Chris OConnor	Re: Howard Bloom chat transcript from March 6th, 2003	#5	[url]	[-]
Indisputable BookTalk Master Posts: 9511 03/08/03 17:20:34 BookTalk Owner	Going back and rereading this chat session has my mind racing! What an incredible night March 6th was IMO. Certain ideas and concepts have stuck with me. Many members made such powerful arguments that I think it would be fun to disuss this transcript a bit more. Chris OConnor:: Someone has to play the role of the Alpha male...in the pecking order howbloom:: to wipe out humanity NaddiaAoC:: Hi folks howbloom:: yes Chris OConnor:: Hey Cheryl howbloom:: the alpha male is the key to social peace I'm thinking back to "The Lucifer Principle" and where he discussed social hierarchies in primate communites. There is always a dominant male who runs the show. Each member of the social group knows their respective place and as a result, for the most part, the group lives in harmony. Once in awhile, the dominant male will experience a challenge to his authority. Either he squashes his opponent or he is replaced at the top of the pecking order. Howard made the argument in "The Lucifer Principle" that nations are superorganisms, much like a band of Bonobos. Perhaps the world needs an alpha male....a silver back...a dominant force. As long as the lead dog is generally agreed to deserve his position as the top of the mountain then we experience a sort of harmony. The moment they become abusive they increase their odds of being toppled. But...the point is that, like in a band of chimps in the jungle who require one leader or dominant male, maybe the world needs the same thing. Chris
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MichaelangeloGlossolalia	Re: Howard Bloom chat transcript from March 6th, 2003	#6	[url]	[-]
Posts: 85 08/31/03 15:18:27 Freshman	I'm not so sure the world needs a dominant male, but I do believe that a dominant movement, a group of individual representing "cutting edge leadership", would involve an array of dominant males AND females. Such a group would not have such a limited bag of tricks as typical dominant males do, instead it would have enough self knowledge to say "I am consciously displaying dominance" the way a rock star does. The dominance shown by Mick Jagger and Neil Young is similar but different to that shown by George W or Saddam Hussein. It is a "higher frequency of alpha".
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Howard Bloom chat transcript from March 6th, 2003

Howard Bloom chat transcript from March 6th, 2003

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