Chris O'Connor
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- Godless in America: Conversations With an Atheist - by George A. Ricker
- Interventions - by Noam Chomsky
- Religious Expression and the American Constitution - by Franklyn S. Haiman
- Deep Economy: The Wealth of Communities and the Durable Future - by Bill McKibben
- The God Delusion - by Richard Dawkins
- The Third Chimpanzee: The Evolution and Future of the Human Animal - by Jared Diamond
- The Woman in the Dunes - by Abe Kobo
- Evolution vs. Creationism: An Introduction - by Eugenie Scott
- The Omnivore's Dilemma: A Natural History of Four Meals - by Michael Pollan
- I, Claudius: From the Autobiography of Tiberius Claudius, Born 10 B.C., Murdered and Deified A.D. 54 - by Robert Graves
- Breaking the Spell: Religion as a Natural Phenomenon - by Daniel Dennett
- A Peace to End All Peace: The Fall of the Ottoman Empire and the Creation of the Modern Middle East - by David Fromkin
- The Time Traveler's Wife - by Audrey Niffenegger
- The End of Faith: Religion, Terror, and the Future of Reason - by Sam Harris
- Ender's Game - by Orson Scott Card
- The Curious Incident of the Dog in the Night-Time - by Mark Haddon
- Value & Virtue in a Godless Universe - by Erik J. Wielenberg
- The March: A Novel - by E.L. Doctorow
- The Ethical Brain - by Michael Gazzaniga
- Freethinkers: A History of American Secularism - by Susan Jacoby
- Collapse: How Societies Choose to Fail or Succeed - by Jared Diamond
- The Battle for God - by Karen Armstrong
- The Future of Life - by Edward O. Wilson
- What is Good? The Search for the Best Way to Live - by A.C. Grayling
- Civilization and It's Enemies: The Next Stage of History - by Lee Harris
- Pale Blue Dot: A Vision of the Human Future in Space - by Carl Sagan
- How We Believe: Science, Skepticism, and the Search for God - by Michael Shermer
- Looking For Spinoza: Joy, Sorrow, and the Feeling Brain - by Antonio Damasio
- Lies (And the Lying Liars Who Tell Them): A Fair and Balanced Look at the Right - by Al Franken
- The Red Queen: Sex and the Evolution of Human Nature - by Matt Ridley
- The Blank Slate: The Modern Denial of Human Nature - by Stephen Pinker
- Unweaving the Rainbow: Science, Delusion and the Appetite for Wonder - by Richard Dawkins
- Atheism: A Reader - edited by S. T. Joshi
- Global Brain: The Evolution of Mass Mind from the Big Bang to the 21st Century - by Howard Bloom
- The Lucifer Principle: A Scientific Expedition into the Forces of History - by Howard Bloom
- Guns, Germs and Steel: The Fates of Human Societies - by Jared Diamond
- Demon-Haunted World: Science As a Candle in the Dark - by Carl Sagan
- Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee: An Indian History of the American West - by Dee Alexander Brown
- Future Shock - by Alvin Toffler
Preface - a discussion!
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Chris OConnor |
Preface - a discussion! |
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Indisputable BookTalk Master
Posts: 9511 07/03/04 10:34:33 BookTalk Owner |
This thread is for discussing the Preface. Please feel free to post within this framework or create your own threads.
Chris O'Connor |
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Jeremy1952 |
Re: Preface - a discussion! | #1 | ||
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Posts: 907 07/14/04 05:29:04 Enlightened One |
The preface has grabbed me by the balls and engaged my attention like few other books have. My impression so far is that this will turn out to be one of those "changed the way I look at the world" works.
If you make yourself really small, you can externalize virtually everything. Daniel Dennett, 1984 |
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pctacitus |
Re: Preface - a discussion! | #2 | ||
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OMG I\'m Awesome!
Posts: 650 07/20/04 04:46:52 Enlightened One |
I must admit that I found Harris's preface quite interesting. I hope he manages to be as gripping throughout the rest of the book.
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misterpessimistic |
Re: Preface - a discussion! | #3 | ||
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Indisputable BookTalk Master
Posts: 4113 07/22/04 08:34:15 Indisputable BookTalk Master |
What exactly did we forget? In the words of the author, "it is necessary for the parents and the grandparents to forget as well". Well, my mom and dad were alive during WW2 and Vietnam and I was alive during Desert Storm...so I do not think the idea that we forgot anything is valid.
The Middle East has been a hot spot for so long that it was evident that if major trouble were ever to shake the world again, it would come from there. It has nothing to do with our forgetfulness and everything to do with the strife in the region. I can see the authors point, however, but I reject the fact the it is exclusively a fantasy of the enemy. Oversimplification will not make this go away. But that is for later chapters. I like the authors style and I do believe he has excellent info to present, but I do not appreciate the idea that what we are suffering is amnesia and that is our only fault in all of this. Mr. P. The one thing of which I am positive is that there is much of which to be negative - Mr. P.
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misterpessimistic |
Re: Preface - a discussion! | #4 | ||
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Indisputable BookTalk Master
Posts: 4113 07/22/04 20:12:49 Indisputable BookTalk Master |
Funny, Harris mentions Kurosawa's "The Seven Samauri", I rented this two weeks ago and have yet to watch it (3.5 hours of subtitles!). I guess I will make time to watch it now.
Mr. P. The one thing of which I am positive is that there is much of which to be negative - Mr. P.
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Mike |
Re: Preface - a discussion! | #5 | ||
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Posts: 12 08/02/04 15:51:30 Kinda New Still |
I enjoyed Harris' preface and look forward to how he develops his ideas. I especially liked how he points out that we do not choose our own agenda in the world in relation to who or why we have an "enemy". This is a point that I think that we often forget. The other things in the preface that struck my attention are:
1) Harris says that mankind has always thought of the enemy as someone who if you do not kill first will kill you. Has he left out a second category of the enemy? What about those who decide someone is their enemy because they want to kill them to get something they have, despite the fact that they are in no danger that the enemy will ever kill or attack them? (e.g., Hitler's decision to attack in the east to create "living space". The Germans, no doubt, thought of the Czechs and Poles as the enemy although they were not in danger of either state killing them in the future.) 2) In defending itself against the enemy, Harris says that a community needs "... a single man to make instant decisions" and it needs to be trained to "... respond to his commands with unthinking obedience". Does this preclude the community from reflectively thinking about and making judgments on this leader's decisions after the necessities of immediate obedience have been met? (i.e., Is it better for a community to be able to replace a leader it has decided is incompetent or mediocre with a superior leader or continue with unquestioning obedience?) 3) Harris defines the highest values that civilized life has to offer as: tolerance, individual liberty, government by consensus, and rational cooperation. He seems to assert this as if it is inherently obvious. Is that so? Many Western critics of democratic capitalism seem to suggest otherwise; not to mention those in the East. 4) I wonder about Harris' use of peasant dilemma presented by 'The Seven Samurai'. Here, Harris seems to presuppose the need for a trained, specialized warrior class and standing army. In his scenario, the peasants would have no need of the samurai if they were capable of defending themselves against the raiding gang of bandits. If they were capable of such self-defense, then the problem of developing and controlling your own "gangsters" goes away. This is important because throughout history societies have not normally required, or at least used, professional standing armies. The dilemma he presents is definitely a real one (exhibited by our own founding fathers' debate over the need and size of a standing army and its inherent dangers), but one not necessarily faced by all civilizations at all times in human history. I can see Harris potentially drawing incorrect conclusions from his view that this choice "... has been the lot of most of mankind". 5) From the above, Harris also seems to make a jump to the "code of honor". He says that the code of honor must be an unquestioned law governing the community. But why does the code of honor have to govern the community? Is it not enough for the code of honor to only govern the warrior class (if one is even needed)? To take Harris' example: it does not matter if the peasants in 'The Seven Samurai' live by and follow the samurai code -- they don't have the arms and training necessary to dominate their neighbors; it is only important that the samurai follow it. And this has potentially important implications. Harris says that a code cannot be chosen by us because then we may opt out of it since we see it as an option. But if only our warriors need the code, then can't the civilian population rationally chose which code to implant into them. The example of the US military comes immediately to mind. The military has explicitly chosen a code to follow (and it even explicitly acknowledges the underlying reasons for their code). When someone joins the US military, they often do not follow anything close to that code; but our experience shows that through rigorous training and promotion we can embed this code of honor within them. 6) Lastly, Harris states that the enemy requires the cultivation of "unthinking personal loyalty to a leader", at least among our warriors. But is this so? It seems that in our society we have been successful in cultivating an "unthinking personal loyalty to an IDEAL". Many in our military may not have any sense of personal loyalty to our leader, in fact, some may even dislike/hate him (e.g., the opinion of some in the US military during the Clinton Presidency); but they still unquestionably follow his orders base upon a higher/more important loyalty to the idea of the United States of America. This seems important because not only does it open up other potential directions for the development of a communities code of honor, but it might also be far less dangerous than that suggested by Harris. (I can't stop thinking about all the civil wars of the Roman Empire that could have been avoided if her soldiers were more loyal to Rome than to their particular general.) |
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misterpessimistic |
Re: Preface - a discussion! | #6 | ||
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Indisputable BookTalk Master
Posts: 4113 08/02/04 18:53:29 Indisputable BookTalk Master |
Mike:
Welcome first of all! Quote: Well, is not your example of this aggressor simply the enemy of the latter? Harris, in his oversimplifying way, talks of things in simple terms: We are the innocent, they are the enemy. So your point, in Harris' world, reverts conveniently back to his thesis. There is no room in his paradigm for any variation from what he wants to impart on the reader. Quote: No. It is necessary to always question the leadership, especially in a society such as ours. I do not buy into the 'unthinking obedience' crap. Harris also states that we must have a 'trust [that is] not evidence of one's credulity" but strictly on 'civic duty'. Nonsense. Are we to be automatons? Thinking is what brung us to where we are. Quote: Harris assumes much IMHO. He expects everyone reading to buy into what he has to say by fiat, he has no interest in an honest exploration of the subject at hand. Quote: I think that is his point. Later in Chapter 6, he returns to the Seven Samurai for one paragraph, stating that "The only way to deal with such gangs is to have one yourself. Only, in order to keep it from preying on you, you must have successfully learned how to domesticate it." He also goes into the methods of Sparta, which I liked very much. Sparta perfected the disassociation from the family and self as the primary unit of loyalty and transferred that loyalty to the team concept, thus allowing Sparta to coalesce into a new form of societal organization that brought change in other societies by necessity. The villagers of Kurosawa's film did not have this ability, thus were subjugated. Harris basically states that a requirement of civilization is a strong military and a focus on preserving society. Quote: I agree...it is the IDEAL that is much larger than the person. But I think Harris means the office of "President" rather than Bush, Clinton or anyone else. Although I still do not buy the "unthinking " part! Some points of mine: Harris states that "Before 9/11...the very concept of the enemy had been banished from our moral and political vocabulary". But by Harris' definition, our forgetfulness comes about when "parents have forgotten what [the harsh and savage] world was like. That is it necessary even for the 'grandparents' to forget. Well, it was only in the 80's that our biggest enemy fell: Soviet Russia. Who has forgotten that? Not I. Harris states that an idea of a Utopian future is unattainable, all we need to do is look back at history to learn this. Simply, "the past tells us that there can be no...perpetual peace". But can we not learn GOOD lessons from history? Like how futile war is in the long run? Are we doomed to fight in perpetuity? I like his examples of the Greek way of thinking about past and future: For the Greeks, the past 'was before them', for the could visualize the events and understand them. The 'future was behind them, sneaking up like thief in the night'. This is profound in the extreme! Mr. P. The one thing of which I am positive is that there is much of which to be negative - Mr. P.
I came to get down, I came to get down. So get out ya seat and jump around - House of Pain |
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ginof |
Preface Comments | #7 | ||
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Posts: 207 08/09/04 13:31:53 Ph.D. |
Chris,
Thanks for organizing the discussion. I was planning to do this with my comments once I had read the preface. I knew that I didn't think I'd like where this book was going. Anyone bashing the Enlightenment is not my friend! So I'll try to read the book with an eye on catching what I think are the authors errors in 'Reason' Toward the bottom of page xiv, he discusses having an enemy, just because the enemy has defined you so. This seems very fatalistic, as individuals are not in control of their place in the world. He also seem to contradict himself here, saying that societies that have enemies are different than those who do not. Harris says that all unsuccessful societies have treated the world as if they had enemies. Of course all unsuccessful societies have been conquered at one time or another. But the same could be said for societies that have been 'successful' (except for the present). So it is not clear that the warrior mentality is the causal factor. Harris really gives away his objective at the top of p xv " a single man to make instant decision that affect the well-being of the entire community, and it does not need to train the community to respond to his commands with unthinking obedience." If I recall, this was also Lenin's goal, and certainly Stalin's. Pretty scary stuff, if you ask me. On p xvi, Harris says that we have always had a choice between the gangsters without and the one's within, given what we know of human nature. I think we need to award Harris a 'Mr. P' for that one. At the bottom of the same page, he makes an assertion that I find wanting. Specifically, that codes of honor are not chosen, but chosen for us. By who? How does this happen? What code of honor is the best? What code of honor is Harris suggesting for us? He doesn't say. Codes of honor really seem to come from history, and they do change over time. Ethics in general has the same issues: Which is the correct set of ethics? There is much debate, and it is not clear that there is a 'better' decision. Overall, I found Harris' analysis condemning society to a never ending cycle of paranoia. If there is no enemy today, perhaps there will be one tomorrow, we must always be prepared to stand under the one ruler. Sounds great if you are the one ruler or one of his henchmen. Additionally, we have always had enemies. What has changed is the ability of the enemy to strike havoc do to more destructive and perhaps more imaginative weaponry. But this fact has not prevented us from somewhat successfully having a pluralistic society. |
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ginof |
Mike's Commentary | #8 | ||
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Posts: 207 08/09/04 13:37:49 Ph.D. |
Hi Mike,
Thanks for the great analysis of the preface. You have a lot of great ideas. I would like to comment on two: 3) Harris defines the highest values that civilized life has to offer as: tolerance, individual liberty, government by consensus, and rational cooperation. He seems to assert this as if it is inherently obvious. Is that so? Many Western critics of democratic capitalism seem to suggest otherwise; not to mention those in the East. Worse than this - even if he wants to have these as the highest ideals, he wants to throw them away by giving all the power to one leader at the top. |
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ginof |
Mike's commentary | #9 | ||
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Posts: 207 08/09/04 13:42:16 Ph.D. |
Hi Mike,
While I don't disagree with you "unthinking personal loyalty to an IDEAL" is a difficult concept to implement in practice. If your ideal is to promote the safety of the US against attack, was attacking Iraq a good idea? I know my opinion, but I know many disagree with me. When person's try to implement principals, the frequently come to different conclusions about what is correct. We see this all the time with ethics. |
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pctacitus |
Re: Mike's Commentary | #10 | ||
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OMG I\'m Awesome!
Posts: 650 08/10/04 15:47:30 Enlightened One |
"Worse than this - even if he wants to have these as the highest ideals, he wants to throw them away by giving all the power to one leader at the top."
Ginof, I noticed the use of Bagehot in Harris, and so I looked at some cursory material and found a quote that might shed some light on this. "So long as war is the main business of nations, temporary despotism - despotism during the campaign - is indispensable." It is from Bagehot's Physics and Politics, ch. 2, sct. 3 (1872) quoted by The Columbia World of Quotations. 1996. www.bartleby.com/66/52/5152.html The idea in times of great upheaval free peoples would place power in the hands of a single man is far from obscure in history. SENATUS CONSULTUM ULTIMUM and Dictatorship were far from unknown in the Roman Republic. The use of Martial Law in times of crisis in American History is not unknown when the war front is on American soil as in the War of 1812 and the Civil War. Lincoln even suspended Haebeus Corpus for years. FDR sanctioned the mass imprisonment of Americans, even the use of torture on German POWs in certain instances. JFK and RFK pushed the use of COINTELPRO against the KKK and approved of wiretapping MLK. Even if we take the (first) Adams and Jefferson administrations use of the Alien & Sedition Acts. Jefferson actually used a Bill of Attainder during the Revolution, one of the actions for which King George is condemned for by Jefferson. By historical comparison, the Patriot Act is tame compared to the actions of FDR and Lincoln who we do not detest, in fact, they both have memorials in DC. |
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misterpessimistic |
Re: Mike's Commentary | #11 | ||
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Indisputable BookTalk Master
Posts: 4113 08/11/04 08:22:55 Indisputable BookTalk Master |
Quote: Yes, in hard times, you gotta do what you gotta do. But to even compare what Bush has done to Lincoln and FDR is insane. The Afghanistan operation was a good call, but Iraq was a choice. Out of the three nations branded 'evil' by Bush, Iraq was the least ready to do damage to anyone. Just look at North Korea and Iran now. Both capable of producing WMD in no time at all compared to Iraq. N Korea already HAS WMD...maybe not to USE, but I am sure for sale. Yet, here we are in Iraq, suffering from the after effects of our "Shock and Awe" campaign. Mr. P. What priors leaders have done is to, short term, take control. It is the push to make the Patriot Act permanent and expand upon it that is scary! Because once the 'threat' diminishes, we will be left with invasive laws and a police force with too much time on their hands. The one thing of which I am positive is that there is much of which to be negative - Mr. P.
I came to get down, I came to get down. So get out ya seat and jump around - House of Pain |
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pctacitus |
Re: Mike's Commentary | #12 | ||
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OMG I\'m Awesome!
Posts: 650 08/12/04 13:36:19 Enlightened One |
I think the comparison is far from "insane" as you say.
Germany sent men to sabotage the war effort in the US during the Second World War. Lincoln dealt with spies and Southern sympathizers, hell, he was shot by one of them, his VP's assassin got cold feet, his Secretary of State was stabbed five times. Had Johnson been assassinated that night, there would have been a completed decapitation of the Union government. FDR had little evidence to suggest that anything was being planned by Japanese Americans, but the Army wanted them locked up, so he made the only politically viable decision. Bush on the other hand, has uncontrovertable evidence that he is facing an enemy that plans massive strikes against Americans at home and has chosen instead of the FDResque decision to move American Muslims into camps, or the Lincolnian decision to suspend Haebeus Corpus and arrest members of the press, but instead, he asked the agencies who would have to protect Americans what they needed, they in turn propsed to the Congress a list of things they desired, which the Congress approved of and has the ability to repeal any portion thereof and their will. |
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LanDroid |
Forgetting or fabricating enemies? | #13 | ||
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Posts: 380 08/24/04 17:34:25 Amusingly Clever |
I'll go along with several other skeptics about America forgetting the concept of the enemy. Our national defense budget is larger than the next 7 countries combined, does that sound like a culture that has forgotten the enemy?
This notion of forgetfullness also flies in the face of one of the stories we tell ourselves - that if we don't have an enemy, we invent one! At the end of the cold war, one could almost feel society casting about for the next boogie man. Would it be "Panamanian Strongman" Noriega? Would it be Iran or Libya? Etc. It almost seems at this and several other places in the book, that Harris is disappointed we haven't adopted the Spartan or Klingon culture. They certainly would never forget the enemy... |
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misterpessimistic |
Re: Forgetting or fabricating enemies? | #14 | ||
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Indisputable BookTalk Master
Posts: 4113 08/24/04 20:38:08 Indisputable BookTalk Master |
Quote: Excellent points Lan! Harris seems to me to encourage conflict and war as a natural state of existence. How sad. Just because it has always been so does not mean it always should be. Harris has a point in that people will NOT change just because a few think of a good idea, but Harris' defeatism, as it pertains to our lot in life, is not a good way of thinking. It is people and thoughts like this that foster a continuance of past idiocy. We can, as a species, learn to control our base instincts, we have seen this in the past. Harris promotes the idea that Western Civilization is THE gift to human beings. He also says in the book that it is amazing that civilization even started at all! Contradictions like this have made my eyes roll so many times throughout the book. Which is it? Stephen Jay Gould has made the claim that if we 'rewind the tape' of natural history, homo-sapiens would not be assured of a place in the world. So many things can occur in evolution that any number of events can transpire, which would produce any number of outcomes. I feel this is the same with the short span of human civilization. If one war in history went another way, we may not even be having this discussion. So far from Western Civ being the crown jewel, I assert that it may be just a passing phase...depending on what time-scale you are using as a reference. Mr. P. The one thing of which I am positive is that there is much of which to be negative - Mr. P.
I came to get down, I came to get down. So get out ya seat and jump around - House of Pain HEY! Is that a ball in your court? - Mr. P |
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Chris OConnor |
Re: Forgetting or fabricating enemies? | #15 | ||
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Indisputable BookTalk Master
Posts: 9511 09/04/04 02:26:07 BookTalk Owner |
misterpessimistic
Lee Harris isn't saying we literally have forgotten our history, but that so much time has gone by that the majority of us take for granted the pains our predecessors went through to get us to where we are today. In essence, we have forgotten that freedom was earned through bloodshed. I really didn't find this statement as an attempt to oversimplify anything, but as a means of making a valid point. We're so caught up in our peaceful and prosperous lives here in the west that we assume this to be the norm. We assume everyone everywhere plays by the same rules, is motivated by the same system of rewards and punishments, and will react the same way that we react when faced with the same situations. Well, this isn't the case. We have essentially forgotten what it's like to have enemies, because we're tuned out. We're so superior militarily, technologically, and culturally to everyone else that our vision has become myopic and short-sighted. Some people need a wakeup call. I think we are suffering from a sort of amnesia. In day-to-day conversations the people I talk to seem clueless about history, and what lead to the United States becoming the world power that it clearly is today. Instead of being thankful for what we have they do nothing but bitch about the negatives. Chris "Education is the most powerful weapon which you can use to change the world." - Nelson Mandella |
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misterpessimistic |
Re: Forgetting or fabricating enemies? | #16 | ||
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Indisputable BookTalk Master
Posts: 4113 09/04/04 07:29:54 Indisputable BookTalk Master |
Quote: I know what he is doing Chris...and I do not think it is very valid. Harris has a shred of a point in what he is saying, and I agree with you that MOST people are spoiled little babies in this country. I do not count myself as one. I also do not "assume everyone everywhere plays by the same rules, is motivated by the same system of rewards and punishments, and will react the same way that I react when faced with the same situations." Maybe that is the reason this book does not speak to me. Read this quote from my initial comment in this thread: Quote: Do you think my grandparents forgot how hard it was making this country what it is today? My grandmother, now deceased, live through WW1 & 2, Korea, Viet Nam, Desert Storm. So, maybe only to me, Harris oversimplifies because I do not, and he does not, make me understand what he means very well. Quote: I will give you the first one, accept the second and warn you to be careful on the third. What makes a culture superior? Of your three examples, this is the most subjective, so do not tell me why you like YOUR culture, (which is nothing more than a collection of other cultures BTW!) but instead, tell me what make one culture better, intrinsically, to another? Ethnocentrism is dangerous and spawns bigger injustices. Quote: Yeah, I agree! After the last election, I could'nt agree more! Mr. P. The one thing of which I am positive is that there is much of which to be negative - Mr. P.
I came to get down, I came to get down. So get out ya seat and jump around - House of Pain HEY! Is that a ball in your court? - Mr. P |
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Tiarella |
Re: Preface Comments | #17 | ||
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Posts: 184 09/04/04 14:40:31 Masters |
Ginof
Quote: This is one place where I agree with Harris. Have you never had someone decide to be your enemy, even though you've never done anything to him/her? It happened to me in grade school. I was of a different race, and I was a good student, and she was a lot bigger than I was. She chose to take her frustrations out on me: "I don't like you. I'm going to beat you up." If you've ever met someone who hates people of your race, religion, ethnic group, gender, or sexual orientation - then you'll know what Harris is talking about here. You may not hate them, but their hate for you can lead them to take actions which you definitely cannot ignore. Nick Quote: Aren't you then agreeing with Harris? You haven't forgotten our history, but you're exceptional. |
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Tiarella |
Re: Preface Comments | #18 | ||
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Posts: 184 09/04/04 14:42:03 Masters |
Nick - which means that girl I knew wants to beat you up.
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Chris OConnor |
Re: Preface Comments | #19 | ||
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Indisputable BookTalk Master
Posts: 9511 09/04/04 15:58:08 BookTalk Owner |
Tiarella
Quote: Exactly! You don't always have the luxury of picking and choosing your own enemies. Some people are bound to pick YOU as their enemy, despite the fact that you've nothing against them. But now that you're their enemy and they treat you as their enemy you are forced to action. This is the situation in which the United States has found itself. And as you've mentioned we should all be able to understand this concept if we apply it to our own lives. At one point or another we all find ourselves in a minority group or position. It is at these times that we can find ourselves with enemies we didn't do anything to deserve. Think of how blacks felt in the United States during the slavery period and the decades of severe oppression that followed. Did they pick whites as their enemies? Of course not, but they had to always be on the defensive. That had to have sucked. Think about how even today hate crimes are committed against minorities, from blacks to Jews to homosexuals to midget shoe salesmen. All of these people want to be left alone and to live their lives in peace, enjoying the same liberties and freedoms as the majority do. But nope. They have to be careful about where they go, what they say, and how they behave. Many will argue that the US has earned it's position as enemy to the peoples of the Middle East, but I think Harris is trying to argue that this isn't really supported by the facts. They've picked us as their enemy due to their fantasy ideology. Maybe we can talk them out of it? Maybe if we negotiate and rationalize with them we'll all relax, fall back, regroup, put down our arms, and have a group hug. I don't see it happening as long as this fantasy is so real for them. We need to die...clearly. Infidel bastards. No amount of empathy, compassion, or education will likely stop their hatred. Chris "Education is the most powerful weapon which you can use to change the world." - Nelson Mandella |
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Chris OConnor |
Re: Preface Comments | #20 | ||
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Indisputable BookTalk Master
Posts: 9511 09/04/04 16:13:46 BookTalk Owner |
I'm going to slowly work my way through all of the chapter discussion threads now, reading both the book chapters again and the posts found in this forum. This thread is just the preface, so I'll move deeped into the book now. Carrying this any further is almost a discussion of the books conclusion.
I was working on the web site updates so I haven't been able to post my thoughts as I read this book. Perhaps I'll find some time now. Chris "Education is the most powerful weapon which you can use to change the world." - Nelson Mandella |
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- Godless in America: Conversations With an Atheist - by George A. Ricker
- Interventions - by Noam Chomsky
- Religious Expression and the American Constitution - by Franklyn S. Haiman
- Deep Economy: The Wealth of Communities and the Durable Future - by Bill McKibben
- The God Delusion - by Richard Dawkins
- The Third Chimpanzee: The Evolution and Future of the Human Animal - by Jared Diamond
- The Woman in the Dunes - by Abe Kobo
- Evolution vs. Creationism: An Introduction - by Eugenie Scott
- The Omnivore's Dilemma: A Natural History of Four Meals - by Michael Pollan
- I, Claudius: From the Autobiography of Tiberius Claudius, Born 10 B.C., Murdered and Deified A.D. 54 - by Robert Graves
- Breaking the Spell: Religion as a Natural Phenomenon - by Daniel Dennett
- A Peace to End All Peace: The Fall of the Ottoman Empire and the Creation of the Modern Middle East - by David Fromkin
- The Time Traveler's Wife - by Audrey Niffenegger
- The End of Faith: Religion, Terror, and the Future of Reason - by Sam Harris
- Ender's Game - by Orson Scott Card
- The Curious Incident of the Dog in the Night-Time - by Mark Haddon
- Value & Virtue in a Godless Universe - by Erik J. Wielenberg
- The March: A Novel - by E.L. Doctorow
- The Ethical Brain - by Michael Gazzaniga
- Freethinkers: A History of American Secularism - by Susan Jacoby
- Collapse: How Societies Choose to Fail or Succeed - by Jared Diamond
- The Battle for God - by Karen Armstrong
- The Future of Life - by Edward O. Wilson
- What is Good? The Search for the Best Way to Live - by A.C. Grayling
- Civilization and It's Enemies: The Next Stage of History - by Lee Harris
- Pale Blue Dot: A Vision of the Human Future in Space - by Carl Sagan
- How We Believe: Science, Skepticism, and the Search for God - by Michael Shermer
- Looking For Spinoza: Joy, Sorrow, and the Feeling Brain - by Antonio Damasio
- Lies (And the Lying Liars Who Tell Them): A Fair and Balanced Look at the Right - by Al Franken
- The Red Queen: Sex and the Evolution of Human Nature - by Matt Ridley
- The Blank Slate: The Modern Denial of Human Nature - by Stephen Pinker
- Unweaving the Rainbow: Science, Delusion and the Appetite for Wonder - by Richard Dawkins
- Atheism: A Reader - edited by S. T. Joshi
- Global Brain: The Evolution of Mass Mind from the Big Bang to the 21st Century - by Howard Bloom
- The Lucifer Principle: A Scientific Expedition into the Forces of History - by Howard Bloom
- Guns, Germs and Steel: The Fates of Human Societies - by Jared Diamond
- Demon-Haunted World: Science As a Candle in the Dark - by Carl Sagan
- Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee: An Indian History of the American West - by Dee Alexander Brown
- Future Shock - by Alvin Toffler
