This thread is for discussing Ch. 5 - The Maya Collapses.
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Restored: "Ch. 5 - The Maya Collapses."
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 Chris OConnor |
Restored: "Ch. 5 - The Maya Collapses." |
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Indisputable BookTalk Master
Posts: 9511 06/08/05 11:59:01 BookTalk Owner |
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Chris OConnor |
Re: Restored: "Ch. 5 - The Maya Collapses." | #1 | ||
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Indisputable BookTalk Master
Posts: 9511 06/08/05 12:00:03 BookTalk Owner |
(4/25/05 11:22 am) misterpessimistic said...
The beginning of this chapter presents the Maya civilization with the wonder and romanticism of modern day people since the re-discovery of this lost civilization. The passage from John Stephens's writings is very poignant in regard to this approach. One thing disturbed me in the early pages of this chapter and that is the story of the Spanish conquest and domination of the Mayan civilization, in particular, the religious arrogance that resulted in the loss of the majority of Maya manuscripts. Whatever the excuse anyone gives, it still makes me ill. When Diamond applies his 5 point framework to this societal collapse, I find myself a bit surprised that he does not include the conquest of the Spanish. He does include the 'Hostile Neighbors", but applies this to the Maya when he states: "Hostilities among the Maya themselves did play a large role." Does this mean the Spanish did not count as a "Hostile Neighbor"? Did the Spanish conquest play no part in the Maya collapse? I cannot see how this can be the case. Mr. P. |
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Chris OConnor |
Re: Restored: "Ch. 5 - The Maya Collapses." | #2 | ||
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Posts: 9511 06/08/05 12:01:02 BookTalk Owner |
(4/25/05 9:08 pm) MadArchitect said...
The Mayan civilization had collapsed by the time the Spanish invaded. The Spanish still encounted the Mayan people, but they were disparate rather than unified. This from the article in the online version of the Columbia Encyclopedia: The period following A.D. 900 was one of rapid decline, and many of the major cities were abandoned. In the heartland of the lowland Maya, most major centers had been abandoned, probably more gradually than has been supposed, by around A.D. 1100. In the Yucatn highlands settlement persisted, with a probable colonization of the site of Chichn Itz by Toltec from Central Mexico. By the time of Spanish conquest, most Mayan populations were centered around small villages. |
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Chris OConnor |
Re: Restored: "Ch. 5 - The Maya Collapses." | #3 | ||
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Indisputable BookTalk Master
Posts: 9511 06/08/05 12:02:07 BookTalk Owner |
(4/25/05 10:27 pm) misterpessimistic said...
I just got to this part in the chapter...that is what I get for posting early in a chapter. With that said, can we say the Spanish conquered them at all? They just moved in basically. Mr. P. |
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Chris OConnor |
Re: Restored: "Ch. 5 - The Maya Collapses." | #4 | ||
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Indisputable BookTalk Master
Posts: 9511 06/08/05 12:02:49 BookTalk Owner |
(4/27/05 1:15 am) ginof said...
MadArchitect has the right answer. And mr. p, I would agree that the spanish probably didn't 'conquer' the maya, they were already gone. Got to visit Tezcal and another Maya city in Belize a couple of years ago at xmas. Wow, what a place. The knowledge of astronomy and other sciences was amazing. Further, it is very clear that there are many other Maya cities that just haven't been uncovered yet. The jungle has overgrown everthing so much, it is possible that every hill is actually a buried ruin. I'm not sure I buy the author's comment about not being able to conquer other cities because of the lack of supply lines. Many armies in history have 'lived off the land' as they marched from one point to the next. Perhaps the best example of this is the conquests of Alexander the Great. |
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marti1900 |
Re: Restored: "Ch. 5 - The Maya Collapses." | #5 | ||
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Posts: 416 06/14/05 20:06:23 Witty&Wise |
The Spanish decimated the Aztec civilization that was flourishing at the time of the arrival of the Conquistadores. The Maya civilization even then was only a memory and a legend.
Because I don't have the book, and now The Hack, I have lost the cohesion of this discussion. There is some pretty sound research that indicates that a ten year period of extreme drought (is that a redundancy?) brought on the downfall, at least in the central Mexican and coast area. There is evidence of rather complex systems for water storage and movement, and it is thought that as the drought worsened, the outlying farmers etc, moved closer to the central cities, putting a greater strain on an already overtaxed water supply system. Eventually, it all gave out, crops disappeared, farm animals died, the food supply evaporated, and the population scattered in search of water and food. This is a scary scenario, because even today, with all our high technology, Mexico is having problems regulating water, and is quickly using up it's acquafiers at an alarming rate. Water from far north is being sent to Mexico City, that city of 23,000,000 yes that's MILLION people. Mexico is a dry dry country. I believe that fact will eventuall lead to it's downfall. Are we watching the onset of a collapse here again? This is the way the world ends This is the way the world ends This is the way the world ends Not with a bang but a whimper. - T.S.Eliot Marti in Mexico |
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misterpessimistic |
Re: Restored: "Ch. 5 - The Maya Collapses." | #6 | ||
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Indisputable BookTalk Master
Posts: 4113 06/14/05 21:43:01 Indisputable BookTalk Master |
Marti:
Even though you do noth ave the book, you seem to have paraphrased part of Diamond's exposition on the Maya collapse...the drought, the move of a majority of the population into the cities after the viability of outlying regions declined...on the nose! Mr. P. The one thing of which I am positive is that there is much of which to be negative - Mr. P.
The pain in hell has two sides. The kind you can touch with your hand; the kind you can feel in your heart...Scorsese's "Mean Streets" I came to kick ass and chew Bubble Gum...and I am all out of Bubble Gum - They Live, Roddy Piper |
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wwdimmitt |
Re: Restored: "Ch. 5 - The Maya Collapses." | #7 | ||
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Posts: 144 06/15/05 07:57:59 Junior |
A couple of riveting quotes from the conclusions section of this chapter on the Maya:
As on Easter Island, and at Chaco Canyon, Maya peak population numbers were followed swiftly by political and social collapse. The passivity of Easter chiefs and Maya kings in the face of the real big threats to their societies completes our list of disquieting parallels. It seems to me that this is a point, the swiftness of decline, that is very much underappreciated by the American public, and by our popular media. It reminds me of Rachel Carson and the outstanding job she did with Silient Spring, probably the most effective, and most popular, environmental book in our culture. Unfortunately, I don't see that Collapseis having near as much impact in the public mind so far. WW
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badmendicant |
Re: Restored: "Ch. 5 - The Maya Collapses." | #8 | ||
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Posts: 121 06/15/05 09:03:32 Senior |
Diamond is arguing by excerption. In selecting the Maya as a focus for his attention Diamond is ignoring a more general pattern of Amerindian cultural growth and decline.
Many civilizations rose and fell in the history of Amerindian America. The puzzle is that they seem swiftly to have developed into civilizations of impressive architectural and astronomical sophistication, endured for a long time in a period of ossification and then collapsed. A factor ignored by Diamond in the collapse of these civilizations is their failure to develop or innovate technology which was in any way comparable to their astronomical and architectural sophistication. The main reason for the pattern of persistent collapse in Amerindian history was an inability to escape from the paradigm of religion. An investigation of religious practices in Aztec and Mayan civilization suggests that these people existed in a "bicameral" state of pre-consciousness, as postulated by Julian Jaynes. |
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marti1900 |
Re: Restored: "Ch. 5 - The Maya Collapses." | #9 | ||
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Posts: 416 06/15/05 12:51:10 Witty&Wise |
The passivity of Easter chiefs and Maya kings in the face of the real big threats to their societies completes our list of disquieting parallels.
How does he know the Maya kings were passive in the face of these threats? From what I understand, there isn't all that much original source material that can tell us anything about the Maya, hence the decades of speculation of why they disappeared. And Bad, you beat me to the punch about their astronomy and architecture. It was all done for religious reasons, whereas the European model of progress is a story of people thinking, working, inventing outside the confines, and often in spite of the religious system/structure. Which leads me to be forming (ok, I'm a slow learner) a shadowy theory that all or most of the collapses stem from the religious structure/system repressing or surpressing or forbidding any widening scope of thought or culture that would have allowed for better management of resources, etc. Consider the Maya, all those Amerindian civilizations gone, the people of Easter Island, the Norse, even the glory that was once Japan, or Greece. Can I be on to something here? I have to go teach a class in about 4 and a half seconds, but I will try to reformulate my thoughts and make a clearer posting. Marti in Mexico |
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misterpessimistic |
Re: Restored: "Ch. 5 - The Maya Collapses." | #10 | ||
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Indisputable BookTalk Master
Posts: 4113 06/15/05 13:19:20 Indisputable BookTalk Master |
Quote: Ohh! Very interesting...please expound on your theory!! Was it adherence to a religion, or those who controlled religion? Can we extrapolate religious strictures to political ideologies of our leaders? Mr. P. Mr. P. The one thing of which I am positive is that there is much of which to be negative - Mr. P.
The pain in hell has two sides. The kind you can touch with your hand; the kind you can feel in your heart...Scorsese's "Mean Streets" I came to kick ass and chew Bubble Gum...and I am all out of Bubble Gum - They Live, Roddy Piper |
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badmendicant |
Re: Restored: "Ch. 5 - The Maya Collapses." | #11 | ||
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Posts: 121 06/16/05 06:29:17 Senior |
Yes! Interesting. Would it be valid to extrapolate from a theory of the self-limiting nature of rigid belief systems that belief itself is a self limiting phenomenon?
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wwdimmitt |
Re: Restored: "Ch. 5 - The Maya Collapses." | #12 | ||
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Posts: 144 06/16/05 09:32:17 Junior |
Mr.P:
Quote: This is a subject that JD covers in Guns, Germs and Steel. Don't have the time right now, but I will dig out a reference in a day or two. Basically, JD argues that all religions are a tool for concentrating and controlling power as human societies become more complex. WW
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badmendicant |
Re: Restored: "Ch. 5 - The Maya Collapses." | #13 | ||
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Posts: 121 06/17/05 05:32:25 Senior |
Why "concentrating and controlling power" ? Why not "organizing society and mitigating social conflict"? Could Diamond be pandering to the atheistic impulses of the audience he seeks to influence?
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misterpessimistic |
Re: Restored: "Ch. 5 - The Maya Collapses." | #14 | ||
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Indisputable BookTalk Master
Posts: 4113 06/17/05 08:52:22 Indisputable BookTalk Master |
Quote: Or could he be simply calling a spade a spade? Do you deny that leaders of major religions seem to covet affluent lifestyles & luxuries? Just WHY does a church, who bases it's existence on a man who was the son of a poor carpenter and preached a very liberal outlook, need all that gold and trappings? Why? It is all about power and control. Another form of a two class society...IMO. Why do you think Church and State have traditionally been in bed together before America? And in America, even WITH the separation, they are STILL in bed together? Because religion and politics are both means of control. Now, I am NOT saying that some form of control over a society is bad, or not necessary, but I just do not see the need for a religious arm in the area of government. Keep religion to the personal sphere. Mr. P. The one thing of which I am positive is that there is much of which to be negative - Mr. P.
The pain in hell has two sides. The kind you can touch with your hand; the kind you can feel in your heart...Scorsese's "Mean Streets" I came to kick ass and chew Bubble Gum...and I am all out of Bubble Gum - They Live, Roddy Piper |
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wwdimmitt |
Re: Restored: "Ch. 5 - The Maya Collapses." | #15 | ||
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Posts: 144 06/17/05 09:01:42 Junior |
Actually, those are my words, not JD's.
I was just expressing what I remember from reading the passage in question a couple or three months ago. His actual words are probably more diplomatic than mine. And my attitude is definitely influenced by my strong agnostic belief when it comes to subjects mythological. I will find JD's actual words and share them before the weekend is over. Quote: From the point of view of the governing authority of any particular society, is there any real difference in meaning between my statement and yours? WW
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badmendicant |
Re: Restored: "Ch. 5 - The Maya Collapses." | #16 | ||
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Posts: 121 06/17/05 09:15:41 Senior |
No. Your choice of definition would depend upon where you percieve your self interest lies.
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misterpessimistic |
Re: Restored: "Ch. 5 - The Maya Collapses." | #17 | ||
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Indisputable BookTalk Master
Posts: 4113 06/17/05 09:51:35 Indisputable BookTalk Master |
Now this is where the "Semantics" discussion comes into play!
Mr. P. The one thing of which I am positive is that there is much of which to be negative - Mr. P.
The pain in hell has two sides. The kind you can touch with your hand; the kind you can feel in your heart...Scorsese's "Mean Streets" I came to kick ass and chew Bubble Gum...and I am all out of Bubble Gum - They Live, Roddy Piper |
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wwdimmitt |
Re: Restored: "Ch. 5 - The Maya Collapses." | #18 | ||
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Posts: 144 06/17/05 20:14:02 Junior |
To see JD's take on this subject, take a look at pages 276 and 277 of GGS. There is also a very useful chart on pages 268-69.
Here is synopsis of the longer quotes: What should an elite do to gain popular support while still maintaining a more comfortable lifestyle than commoners? Kleptocrats throughout the ages have resorted to a mixture of four solutions: 1. Disarm the populace, and arm the elite. 2. Make the masses happy by redistributing much of the tribute received, in popular ways.j 3. Use the monopoly of force to promote happiness, by maintaining public order and curbing violence. 4. The remaining way for kleptocrats to gain public support is to construct an ideology or religion justifying kleptocracy. WW
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badmendicant |
Re: Restored: "Ch. 5 - The Maya Collapses." | #19 | ||
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Posts: 121 06/18/05 16:14:13 Senior |
Or alternatively........
1. Impose arms controls (as Michael Moore wants to do in America) and restrict their use. 2.Redistribute wealth (your problem is?) 3. Maintain public order and curb violence (Oh my God!). 4. Unify people under a common belief system with broad appeal. Diamond chooses negative language because he intends these criteria to be applied to the European civilization he is attempting to deconstruct. Diamond is a neurotic europhobe on a mission. |
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MadArchitect |
Re: Restored: "Ch. 5 - The Maya Collapses." | #20 | ||
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Posts: 3169 06/19/05 23:45:48 Indisputable BookTalk Master |
4. The remaining way for kleptocrats to gain public support is to construct an ideology or religion justifying kleptocracy.
On the whole, I'm interested in the common wisdom that religion is a form of social control, most popularly expressed by Marx's quip that "religion is the opiate of the masses." What would you guys list as clear examples of religions that are first and foremost social control in the service of a distinct political aim? |
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- Godless in America: Conversations With an Atheist - by George A. Ricker
- Interventions - by Noam Chomsky
- Religious Expression and the American Constitution - by Franklyn S. Haiman
- Deep Economy: The Wealth of Communities and the Durable Future - by Bill McKibben
- The God Delusion - by Richard Dawkins
- The Third Chimpanzee: The Evolution and Future of the Human Animal - by Jared Diamond
- The Woman in the Dunes - by Abe Kobo
- Evolution vs. Creationism: An Introduction - by Eugenie Scott
- The Omnivore's Dilemma: A Natural History of Four Meals - by Michael Pollan
- I, Claudius: From the Autobiography of Tiberius Claudius, Born 10 B.C., Murdered and Deified A.D. 54 - by Robert Graves
- Breaking the Spell: Religion as a Natural Phenomenon - by Daniel Dennett
- A Peace to End All Peace: The Fall of the Ottoman Empire and the Creation of the Modern Middle East - by David Fromkin
- The Time Traveler's Wife - by Audrey Niffenegger
- The End of Faith: Religion, Terror, and the Future of Reason - by Sam Harris
- Ender's Game - by Orson Scott Card
- The Curious Incident of the Dog in the Night-Time - by Mark Haddon
- Value & Virtue in a Godless Universe - by Erik J. Wielenberg
- The March: A Novel - by E.L. Doctorow
- The Ethical Brain - by Michael Gazzaniga
- Freethinkers: A History of American Secularism - by Susan Jacoby
- Collapse: How Societies Choose to Fail or Succeed - by Jared Diamond
- The Battle for God - by Karen Armstrong
- The Future of Life - by Edward O. Wilson
- What is Good? The Search for the Best Way to Live - by A.C. Grayling
- Civilization and It's Enemies: The Next Stage of History - by Lee Harris
- Pale Blue Dot: A Vision of the Human Future in Space - by Carl Sagan
- How We Believe: Science, Skepticism, and the Search for God - by Michael Shermer
- Looking For Spinoza: Joy, Sorrow, and the Feeling Brain - by Antonio Damasio
- Lies (And the Lying Liars Who Tell Them): A Fair and Balanced Look at the Right - by Al Franken
- The Red Queen: Sex and the Evolution of Human Nature - by Matt Ridley
- The Blank Slate: The Modern Denial of Human Nature - by Stephen Pinker
- Unweaving the Rainbow: Science, Delusion and the Appetite for Wonder - by Richard Dawkins
- Atheism: A Reader - edited by S. T. Joshi
- Global Brain: The Evolution of Mass Mind from the Big Bang to the 21st Century - by Howard Bloom
- The Lucifer Principle: A Scientific Expedition into the Forces of History - by Howard Bloom
- Guns, Germs and Steel: The Fates of Human Societies - by Jared Diamond
- Demon-Haunted World: Science As a Candle in the Dark - by Carl Sagan
- Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee: An Indian History of the American West - by Dee Alexander Brown
- Future Shock - by Alvin Toffler
