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One case of a collapsed society Diamond has overlooked is the former Stalinist countries of Eastern Europe.

They certainly do provide a recent example of over-exploitation of the environment during Stalin's Five-Year Plans and a political culture that valued power and structure above all else - especially during the Brezhnev era.

However, the fate of the former Stalinist nations since 1989 makes one doubt this. Their societies have collapsed due to rapid declines in fertility rates, which at present are so low Eastern Europe is faced with vast population losses by mid-century. Moreover, the mere fact that Western Europe, despite the best environmental record and the highest living standards ever seen, has equally low fertility rates suggests that the paleoconservative (Pat Buchanan in "The Death of the West" or Sra Trifkovi) belief in societal collapse always due to collapse of the religious beliefs that built the society may have sone truth.

I myself have little doubt that both religious collapse and environmental destrction can cause societal collapse. However, there exists an urgent need for effort by specialists in the field of societal collapse to locate the causes and wrong decisions that have led to the collapse of Christianity in Europe. It would also be wonderful (though unlikely) for environmentalists and paleoconservatives to debate or even discuss with each other the real problems that cause societies to collapse, and under what conditions they can survive.