Ch. 7 - Dawn of the Culture Wars - Freethinkers: A History of American Secularism - by Susan Jacoby - Archived Book Discussions - www.BookTalk.org - Message Board

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Ch. 7 - Dawn of the Culture Wars

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Chris OConnor	Ch. 7 - Dawn of the Culture Wars		Lead	[-]
Indisputable BookTalk Master Posts: 9511 06/27/05 23:08:27 BookTalk Owner	Tags : None This thread is for discussing Ch. 7 - Dawn of the Culture Wars. You can post within this framework or create your own threads.
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tarav	Re: Ch. 7 - Dawn of the Culture Wars	#1	[url]	[-]
Posts: 1052 08/12/05 15:02:16 Moderator	In this chapter Jacoby discusses the merging of the women suffragists with The Women's Christian Temperance Union. Jacoby explains how it made sense, politically, to Anthony to merge. Anthony was willing to put aside some of the concerns of the suffragists, like the role of religion in subjugating women, to make room for some of the Christian Union's objectives, like Sunday closing laws. However, Stanton was unwilling to be quiet about religion. Anthony tried to dissuade Stanton from publishing her Woman's Bible. Stanton not only published it, but also continued to speak passionately against religion. What do you think about Stanton's decision to continue to speak against religion in the suffragist movement? Do you think Anthony was right about leaving religion out of it?
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ginof	Re: Ch. 7 - Dawn of the Culture Wars	#2	[url]	[-]
Posts: 207 09/01/05 01:10:35 Ph.D.	Tara, great question! Perhaps the way to think about it is to ask: would we have gotten there anyway if she has not left it out? I think we would have, but it may have taken longer. So, this says Anthony was wrong to leave it out. The other way to think about it was that the groups were more powerful joined together and could accomplish more this way. So, this says Anthony was wrong. My opinion is that I want to read Stanton's bible for women (along with Twain's bible)! In politics, you make a lot of pacts with the devil, but that's the way it works.
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ginof	Re: Ch. 7 - Dawn of the Culture Wars	#3	[url]	[-]
Posts: 207 09/01/05 01:13:14 Ph.D.	P197. Really loved Stanton's speach here. She really knew how to call a spade a spade. Very bold for a woman to do so in her lifetime.
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ginof	Re: Ch. 7 - Dawn of the Culture Wars	#4	[url]	[-]
Posts: 207 09/01/05 01:16:19 Ph.D.	p204 *Quote:* That reality only reinforced the determination of younger leaders like Catt--many of whom were secret agnostics themselves-- to cover up the anticlerical origins of the suffragist movement. Why in the world would an agnostic want to cover up the anticlerical origin of the movement? I could see theists wanting to do so, not agnostics.
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ginof	Re: Ch. 7 - Dawn of the Culture Wars	#5	[url]	[-]
Posts: 207 09/01/05 01:18:53 Ph.D.	I think it's pretty cool that the person most quoted in the book (so far) is Whitman. He could really write some racy stuff. Mind blowing to think of someone writing gay porn in the 1800's. No wonder he made so many heads spin!
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misterpessimistic	Re: Ch. 7 - Dawn of the Culture Wars	#6	[url]	[-]
Indisputable BookTalk Master Posts: 4113 09/22/05 12:57:45 Indisputable BookTalk Master	*Quote:* Why in the world would an agnostic want to cover up the anticlerical origin of the movement? I think our old friend...Fear. There may have been of fear of that fact, weilded by the ingorant and fanatical faithful, tainting the efforts. Mr. P. The one thing of which I am positive is that there is much of which to be negative - Mr. P. The pain in hell has two sides. The kind you can touch with your hand; the kind you can feel in your heart...Scorsese's "Mean Streets" I came to kick ass and chew Bubble Gum...and I am all out of Bubble Gum - They Live, Roddy Piper
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GOD defiles Reason	Re: Ch. 7 - Dawn of the Culture Wars	#7	[url]	[-]
Amusingly Clever Posts: 393 09/25/05 02:58:12 Banned User	Fear probably played a part. But in this case I think it had more to do with numbers. The agnostics (some or most of 'em) probably felt that the coalition might not stay intact if the suffragists movement was known as an Atheist or "Godless" organization. And that's probably true. The suffragist movement was the priority, agnostic credibilty took a back seat. But I agree with what Stanton said on p. 203: "...this much lauded policy is but another word for cowardice (refering to those saying that arousing religious opposition was politically unwise) ... Reformers who are always compromising, have not yet grasped the idea that truth is the only safe ground to stand on."
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misterpessimistic	Re: Ch. 7 - Dawn of the Culture Wars	#8	[url]	[-]
Indisputable BookTalk Master Posts: 4113 09/25/05 09:56:56 Indisputable BookTalk Master	GOD: This is what I mean by fear. When we have to (or did have to in this case) worry that a cause as moral and good as the suffragist movement has to worry about loosing ground because some members do not believe in myths and stories....well, what better example of fear is there? I see why they did it....but I just cannot understand WHY! Mr. P. The one thing of which I am positive is that there is much of which to be negative - Mr. P. The pain in hell has two sides. The kind you can touch with your hand; the kind you can feel in your heart...Scorsese's "Mean Streets" I came to kick ass and chew Bubble Gum...and I am all out of Bubble Gum - They Live, Roddy Piper
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misterpessimistic	Re: Ch. 7 - Dawn of the Culture Wars	#9	[url]	[-]
Indisputable BookTalk Master Posts: 4113 09/27/05 12:32:34 Indisputable BookTalk Master	*Quote:* As Freethought publications proliferated in the 1880's and 1890's, prosecutions of their editors became more frequent-lending additional support to Ingersoll's contention that the antiobscenity statutes were being used to target atheists, agnostics and freethinkers. Is anyone else outraged by this Comstock character? Or is he someone we would soon forget? He is a dangerous character that can still be a factor even today...what with Ashcroft and the like still a viable force. Comstock and McCarthy are not far apart at all, IMO. Ignorance mixed with power is dangerous...and then there was Bush. Mr. P. The one thing of which I am positive is that there is much of which to be negative - Mr. P. The pain in hell has two sides. The kind you can touch with your hand; the kind you can feel in your heart...Scorsese's "Mean Streets" I came to kick ass and chew Bubble Gum...and I am all out of Bubble Gum - They Live, Roddy Piper
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misterpessimistic	Re: Ch. 7 - Dawn of the Culture Wars	#10	[url]	[-]
Indisputable BookTalk Master Posts: 4113 09/27/05 12:43:34 Indisputable BookTalk Master	Whitman: *Quote:* O I see flashing that this America is only you and me, Its power, weapons, testimony, are you and me, Its crimes, lies, thefts, defections, are you and me, Its Congress is you and me, the officers, capitols, armies, ships, are you and me, Its endless gestations of new States are you and me, The war, (that war so bloody and grim, the war I will henceforth forget), was you and me, Natural and artificial are you and me, Freedom, language, poems, employments, are you and me, Past, present, future, are you and me. I dare not shirk any part of myself, Not any part of America good or bad, Not to build for that which builds for mankind, Not to balance ranks, complexions, creeds, and the sexes, Not to justify science nor the march of equality, Nor to feed the arrogant blood of the brawn belov'd of time. I am for those that have never been master'd, For men and women whose tempers have never been master'd, For those whom laws, theories, conventions, can never master. I am for those who walk abreast with the whole earth, Who inaugurate one to inaugurate all. I will not be outfaced by irrational things, I will penetrate what it is in them that is sarcastic upon me, I will make cities and civilizations defer to me, Another who I have discovered a deep appreciation for! Mr. P. The one thing of which I am positive is that there is much of which to be negative - Mr. P. The pain in hell has two sides. The kind you can touch with your hand; the kind you can feel in your heart...Scorsese's "Mean Streets" I came to kick ass and chew Bubble Gum...and I am all out of Bubble Gum - They Live, Roddy Piper
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misterpessimistic	Re: Ch. 7 - Dawn of the Culture Wars	#11	[url]	[-]
Indisputable BookTalk Master Posts: 4113 09/27/05 12:50:19 Indisputable BookTalk Master	Page 226, Ingersoll's Eulogy of Whitman (look for it yourself!): Jacoby points out: *Quote:* This eulogy, an instant classic reprinted in newspapers throughout the nation, offers the definitive answer, resonating from America's golden age of freethought, to those who would shun the nation's freethinkers and secularists as believers in nothing. Why does it still persist that atheists, et al, can not feel emotionally or aesthetically about things as theists or others of faith feel? Why is it always called into question? Simple minds...that is what I think. Just cannot grasp a life without self-deception...cannot understand that these emotions are buried deep within the human brain and have nothing to do with religion or god...it has to do with us. With our perceptions and our hopes and dreams. The weakness is in that person who feels that the only way to feeling, morality or love of self and others can only be acheived through a fake god. Mr. P. The one thing of which I am positive is that there is much of which to be negative - Mr. P. The pain in hell has two sides. The kind you can touch with your hand; the kind you can feel in your heart...Scorsese's "Mean Streets" I came to kick ass and chew Bubble Gum...and I am all out of Bubble Gum - They Live, Roddy Piper
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GOD defiles Reason	Re: Ch. 7 - Dawn of the Culture Wars	#12	[url]	[-]
Amusingly Clever Posts: 393 09/27/05 23:14:31 Banned User	*Quote:* Is anyone else outraged by this Comstock character? Or is he someone we would soon forget? He is a dangerous character that can still be a factor even today...what with Ashcroft and the like still a viable force. Comstock and McCarthy are not far apart at all, IMO. Ignorance mixed with power is dangerous...and then there was Bush. Yes. Reading about these Comstock laws do piss me off. Knowing people were sent to "hard labor prisons" because of written words does piss me off. And, yes, those things are happening today. At least the intent to induce fear in the hearts of dissenters. If McCartny was able to sing about marijuana and transvestitism a year after Janet Jackson flashed her tit, do we really think that "decency" was ever an issue? Or was all the uproar caused in order to give the FCC the power to scare some broadcasters into watching what they say or they may be punished financially? Even to the extent of going out of business, depending on the depth of their pockets. What's more "indecent" than a "spiritual leader" calling for the murder of an elected leader of another country?
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