- Member Introductions & Journals
- BookTalk News & Development
- Religion, Philosophy & the Arts
- Politics, Current Events & History
- Science, Nature & Technology
- General Discussion & Miscellaneous Topics
- Book Suggestions, Polls, & Reviews
- Additional Book Discussions
- Godless in America: Conversations With an Atheist - by George A. Ricker
- Interventions - by Noam Chomsky
- Religious Expression and the American Constitution - by Franklyn S. Haiman
- Deep Economy: The Wealth of Communities and the Durable Future - by Bill McKibben
- The God Delusion - by Richard Dawkins
- The Third Chimpanzee: The Evolution and Future of the Human Animal - by Jared Diamond
- The Woman in the Dunes - by Abe Kobo
- Evolution vs. Creationism: An Introduction - by Eugenie Scott
- The Omnivore's Dilemma: A Natural History of Four Meals - by Michael Pollan
- I, Claudius: From the Autobiography of Tiberius Claudius, Born 10 B.C., Murdered and Deified A.D. 54 - by Robert Graves
- Breaking the Spell: Religion as a Natural Phenomenon - by Daniel Dennett
- A Peace to End All Peace: The Fall of the Ottoman Empire and the Creation of the Modern Middle East - by David Fromkin
- The Time Traveler's Wife - by Audrey Niffenegger
- The End of Faith: Religion, Terror, and the Future of Reason - by Sam Harris
- Ender's Game - by Orson Scott Card
- The Curious Incident of the Dog in the Night-Time - by Mark Haddon
- Value & Virtue in a Godless Universe - by Erik J. Wielenberg
- The March: A Novel - by E.L. Doctorow
- The Ethical Brain - by Michael Gazzaniga
- Freethinkers: A History of American Secularism - by Susan Jacoby
- Collapse: How Societies Choose to Fail or Succeed - by Jared Diamond
- The Battle for God - by Karen Armstrong
- The Future of Life - by Edward O. Wilson
- What is Good? The Search for the Best Way to Live - by A.C. Grayling
- Civilization and It's Enemies: The Next Stage of History - by Lee Harris
- Pale Blue Dot: A Vision of the Human Future in Space - by Carl Sagan
- How We Believe: Science, Skepticism, and the Search for God - by Michael Shermer
- Looking For Spinoza: Joy, Sorrow, and the Feeling Brain - by Antonio Damasio
- Lies (And the Lying Liars Who Tell Them): A Fair and Balanced Look at the Right - by Al Franken
- The Red Queen: Sex and the Evolution of Human Nature - by Matt Ridley
- The Blank Slate: The Modern Denial of Human Nature - by Stephen Pinker
- Unweaving the Rainbow: Science, Delusion and the Appetite for Wonder - by Richard Dawkins
- Atheism: A Reader - edited by S. T. Joshi
- Global Brain: The Evolution of Mass Mind from the Big Bang to the 21st Century - by Howard Bloom
- The Lucifer Principle: A Scientific Expedition into the Forces of History - by Howard Bloom
- Guns, Germs and Steel: The Fates of Human Societies - by Jared Diamond
- Demon-Haunted World: Science As a Candle in the Dark - by Carl Sagan
- Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee: An Indian History of the American West - by Dee Alexander Brown
- Future Shock - by Alvin Toffler
Ch. 1 - Revolutionary Secularism
| Author | Comment | |||
|---|---|---|---|---|
Chris OConnor |
Ch. 1 - Revolutionary Secularism |
Lead | ||
|
Indisputable BookTalk Master
Posts: 9511 06/27/05 23:15:19 BookTalk Owner | ||||
|
|
||||
misterpessimistic |
Re: Ch. 1 - Revolutionary Secularism | #1 | ||
|
Indisputable BookTalk Master
Posts: 4113 07/05/05 19:35:07 Indisputable BookTalk Master |
The words of Madison and Jefferson are wonderful. I will be reading more about them in the future.
I knew I liked Virginia for a reason...and I thought it was just a nice place... It was the state with the first religious freedom act (which spurred on the separation issue). I have notes on the chapter that I will be sharing soon. Mr. P. The one thing of which I am positive is that there is much of which to be negative - Mr. P.
The pain in hell has two sides. The kind you can touch with your hand; the kind you can feel in your heart...Scorsese's "Mean Streets" I came to kick ass and chew Bubble Gum...and I am all out of Bubble Gum - They Live, Roddy Piper |
|||
|
|
||||
misterpessimistic |
Lesser of two Evils? | #2 | ||
|
Indisputable BookTalk Master
Posts: 4113 07/12/05 09:11:21 Indisputable BookTalk Master |
I am not necessarily for ousting religion from our society, just keeping where it should be: in the personal sphere. As I have said, there are just too many different people/religions/sects within religion for a government to endorse only one as a standard. This is what the Founders saw, at least those that aspired to an Enlightenment philosophy. Reason, not myth. Human Beings, not a God as lawmaker. Reason and secularism won. Let's move on.
But the seeds of our current discord between the religious v. non-religious/secular/non-christian, according to Jacoby and other research/pondering I have been doing, were sown all the way back to the days of our Founders. A secular Constitution was possible due to the cooperation of true secular freethinkers as well as marginalized evangelical of the time. Many factions existed that would have been subjugated by any recognition of the majority Christian group as a national religion. These marginalized groups sided with the secularists as the lesser of two evils, and have 'bided their time until their growing numbers' increased to the point that they could 'influence lawmakers' and insinuate their faith back in to the law of our land. I think that we are living in those times now. Mr. P. The one thing of which I am positive is that there is much of which to be negative - Mr. P.
The pain in hell has two sides. The kind you can touch with your hand; the kind you can feel in your heart...Scorsese's "Mean Streets" I came to kick ass and chew Bubble Gum...and I am all out of Bubble Gum - They Live, Roddy Piper |
|||
|
|
||||
misterpessimistic |
Re: Ch. 1 - Revolutionary Secularism | #3 | ||
|
Indisputable BookTalk Master
Posts: 4113 07/12/05 15:13:39 Indisputable BookTalk Master |
Jacoby mentions many times through the first few chapters about how the great freethinkers of the past, and those who especially were instrumental to the founding and of setting the foundation of this country, were and are still marginalized by the religious institution of this country.
Does anyone think this is the case? Was it by intention or oversight? Were these great thinkers forgotten for religious or political reasons (case in point, many of Paine's friends shunned him because of the fear of drawing the ire of the ignorant)? I, of course, feel that religious institutions are the most corrupt institutions around and absolutely subjugate information that may open up eyes to the foolishness they disseminate to the general public. Mr. P. The one thing of which I am positive is that there is much of which to be negative - Mr. P.
The pain in hell has two sides. The kind you can touch with your hand; the kind you can feel in your heart...Scorsese's "Mean Streets" I came to kick ass and chew Bubble Gum...and I am all out of Bubble Gum - They Live, Roddy Piper |
|||
|
|
||||
Jeremy1952 |
Re: Ch. 1 - Revolutionary Secularism | #4 | ||
|
Posts: 907 07/17/05 11:24:40 Enlightened One |
misterpessimistic
Quote:I think the primary principle at work here is confirmation bias. Until recently, it was simply unthinkable to a religious person that a freethinker or even a person with a different religion could be moral. Although there is surely some deliberate dissembling, I think Christian historians who ignored freethinkers "knew" that they weren't important before they began writing. If you make yourself really small, you can externalize virtually everything. Daniel Dennett, 1984 |
|||
|
|
||||
Jeremy1952 |
Re: Ch. 1 - Revolutionary Secularism | #5 | ||
|
Posts: 907 07/17/05 11:27:53 Enlightened One |
misterpessimistic
Quote:I always liked it because it sounds like "vagina" |
|||
|
|
||||
LanDroid |
Gawd | #6 | ||
|
Posts: 380 08/04/05 19:28:25 Amusingly Clever |
Quote: Sweet! Quote: Ouch! Quote: Almost seems like a miracle doesn't it? |
|||
|
|
||||
misterpessimistic |
Re: Gawd | #7 | ||
|
Indisputable BookTalk Master
Posts: 4113 08/04/05 19:38:22 Indisputable BookTalk Master |
These are quotes I had tagged as well. Very profound and, in the case of the slavery one, kinda sad.
Mr. P. The one thing of which I am positive is that there is much of which to be negative - Mr. P.
The pain in hell has two sides. The kind you can touch with your hand; the kind you can feel in your heart...Scorsese's "Mean Streets" I came to kick ass and chew Bubble Gum...and I am all out of Bubble Gum - They Live, Roddy Piper |
|||
|
|
||||
ginof |
Re: Ch. 1 - Revolutionary Secularism | #8 | ||
|
Posts: 207 08/20/05 01:25:47 Ph.D. |
Jeremy,
There is a town in seskachaw called Regina. They pronounce it re-GEE-na. THAT's funny! |
|||
|
|
||||
ginof |
Re: Ch. 1 - Revolutionary Secularism | #9 | ||
|
Posts: 207 08/20/05 02:08:58 Ph.D. |
Mr P. you are correct, the words of Madison and Jefferson are inspring, particularly the quote on page 20. Madison was the architect of the constitution, for him to say
Quote:is huge. Further on the page it shows that he thought that keeping the government and religion completely separate was the way to minimize the worst effects of religions discord on civil society and government. Yet, we run headlong in the other direction...... |
|||
|
|
||||
ginof |
Re: Ch. 1 - Revolutionary Secularism | #10 | ||
|
Posts: 207 08/20/05 02:12:23 Ph.D. |
The discussion of the passing of the religious liberty law in virginia (p23-4) is also interesting in that they do acknolwlege god, but vote down a reference to jesus. I wonder what today's virginians (i.e. pat robertson and jerry fawell) would think of that if they knew who did it and why? I can see them sputtering out something wrong now.
|
|||
|
|
||||
misterpessimistic |
Re: Ch. 1 - Revolutionary Secularism | #11 | ||
|
Indisputable BookTalk Master
Posts: 4113 09/21/05 22:39:26 Indisputable BookTalk Master |
So how steeped in secular thought, and enlightenment thought, was the founding of our nation?
Quote: There was an important disconnect at this time, I think, that paved the way for a new outlook on the future...which is to say, a break from the past. This reminds me of the mythos and logos debate we had in "Battle". Although I do not imply that the founding of our nation was the break from a dogmatic and indoctrinating social system, I do feel that there was this shift during the "Age of Reason" if you will. And the secular nature of the new nation was not only embraced by agnostics or desits. Many of faith realized that a secular nation would protect, not degrade, their religion of choice. The smaller sects were concerned about the majority gaining too much power. This is what I meant when I said, elsewhere, that by 'secular' we may not mean entirely an a-religious societal order. Pg 21: Quote: Amen. Let's keep it that way. Pg 34: Quote: Great line! Mr. P. The one thing of which I am positive is that there is much of which to be negative - Mr. P.
The pain in hell has two sides. The kind you can touch with your hand; the kind you can feel in your heart...Scorsese's "Mean Streets" I came to kick ass and chew Bubble Gum...and I am all out of Bubble Gum - They Live, Roddy Piper |
|||
|
|
||||
misterpessimistic |
Re: Ch. 1 - Revolutionary Secularism | #12 | ||
|
Indisputable BookTalk Master
Posts: 4113 09/21/05 22:40:24 Indisputable BookTalk Master |
Quote: Contrary to the alarmist Fundamentalists today, I do not see anything in what I have read from that time trying to do away with religion...just trying to keep it OUT of politics and vice-versa. This would be so acceptable tome, and I assume others, who just want that crap out of our lives. I do not care if it goes by the wayside, though I would not fret over it, I just want it out of my face. I would not cry foul over people praying at home, yet people like me, atheists and others, are made to look like villains when we state that we do not want the intrusion of others fantasies in our, or our childrens (read: schools) lives. Pg 19: Madison laid his case for freedom OF and FROM religion "citing the 'malignant influence' of religious hatred...on 'the health and prosperity of the state'...[Madison] argued, a secular government's evenhandedness toward all forms of belief and non-belief would serve...to minimalize the worst effects of religious discord on civil society & government". I see Fundie's trying to tamper with this...which is why I said in the Battle for God discussion on 9/21/2005 in the "Is Belief a Choice" thread that a secular society is the most neutral way to go to protect ALL belief and non-belief. The discord we see even today is at the hands of religious factions trying to insinuate their beliefs into everyone's lives...not atheists or secularists trying to attack their faith. And no, I do not think I should be expected to sugar-coat my words, because all that does is water down the importance of defending what our country was founded on...and the importance to have the right to live my life the way I please...while NOT hurting others. Mr. P. The one thing of which I am positive is that there is much of which to be negative - Mr. P.
The pain in hell has two sides. The kind you can touch with your hand; the kind you can feel in your heart...Scorsese's "Mean Streets" I came to kick ass and chew Bubble Gum...and I am all out of Bubble Gum - They Live, Roddy Piper |
|||
|
|
||||
misterpessimistic |
Re: Ch. 1 - Revolutionary Secularism | #13 | ||
|
Indisputable BookTalk Master
Posts: 4113 09/21/05 22:40:58 Indisputable BookTalk Master |
Quote: This harkens back to our Paine reading about revealed dogma and prophecy. They are no way to run a society. I think that is plain. It is not even a way to run a lifeIMO. But so long as it DOES NO HARM, I would say to let it be. Education is the key I think. Education allows people to think for themselves. I do believe that there are some who have superior brains than others, but stilleven the dimmest bulb can benefit from a mirrored curtain. Education helps one shed the ignorance of dogma and to question what they are told by others, who invariably use this tactic to coerce. To paraphrase page 16: Expansion of literacy rates among a large percentage of the American citizenry contributed to the spread of Freethought. (Religion is based on a certain type of ignorance, IMO). America was the leader in this respect. Ordinary Americans were not on par with academics in America or abroad, but were way ahead of the general population of other countries. This spread of Freethought through an educated populace made it possible for a secular constitution to be written. Quote: I have felt that there are those in society that wish to keep the intelligence of the masses down, so as to be able to control and use them. This is mainly the 'church' & politicians, IMO. Lip service is paid to education, but funding is rarely where it should be. I was talking to a young man a while back about his extremely religious family and circle of friends (elders). He said to me that they discouraged reading about science (evolution especially) and discouraged talking to ANYONE that believed differently from him. Sad. He was thinking about moving away from the church, and his PARENTS threatened to disown him and throw him out of the house. Nice! Mr. P. The one thing of which I am positive is that there is much of which to be negative - Mr. P.
The pain in hell has two sides. The kind you can touch with your hand; the kind you can feel in your heart...Scorsese's "Mean Streets" I came to kick ass and chew Bubble Gum...and I am all out of Bubble Gum - They Live, Roddy Piper |
|||
|
|
||||
misterpessimistic |
Re: Ch. 1 - Revolutionary Secularism | #14 | ||
|
Indisputable BookTalk Master
Posts: 4113 09/21/05 22:56:34 Indisputable BookTalk Master |
Pg. 33
Quote: YES! And OUCH! Anyone agree? I know there will be at least one who disagrees! As I mentioned in the Ingersoll book I bought, not one essay or speech on his agnosticism was included. The publishers seem to have taken only his speeches that supported the early nation. This book was published in the late 1800's, but we know what was going on then: The Comstock Laws and other subtle and not so subtle pressures on publishers and others. Mr. P. The one thing of which I am positive is that there is much of which to be negative - Mr. P.
The pain in hell has two sides. The kind you can touch with your hand; the kind you can feel in your heart...Scorsese's "Mean Streets" I came to kick ass and chew Bubble Gum...and I am all out of Bubble Gum - They Live, Roddy Piper |
|||
|
|
||||
misterpessimistic |
Re: Ch. 1 - Revolutionary Secularism | #15 | ||
|
Indisputable BookTalk Master
Posts: 4113 09/21/05 23:16:36 Indisputable BookTalk Master |
Lets face it...the ABSENCE of the word "GOD" in the constitution speaks VOLUMES about what the founders were aiming at for our system of government.
Mr. P. The one thing of which I am positive is that there is much of which to be negative - Mr. P.
The pain in hell has two sides. The kind you can touch with your hand; the kind you can feel in your heart...Scorsese's "Mean Streets" I came to kick ass and chew Bubble Gum...and I am all out of Bubble Gum - They Live, Roddy Piper |
|||
|
|
||||
riverc0il |
Re: Ch. 1 - Revolutionary Secularism | #16 | ||
|
Posts: 447 01/02/06 15:29:42 Witty&Wise |
i am jumping on board freethinkers two quarters too late, but i have finished the most recent Q1 of 06 reading and wanted to tackle this book next. here are some of my thoughts for chapter 1:
i don't think jacoby stresses enough the fact that the freethinkers featured in this chapter were religious men, or at least men that believed in a god or higher power. i know it was mentioned at one point that jefferson is debated these days by both extremes as either being more agnostic or heavily religious but in fact was moderate. the fact was the nation was founded by politicians that were religious and believed in god, they just had the sense to put aside god and religion and found the country based on man and society. delving further into that topic by veering off slightly, it is interesting to note that the majority religions were against the omission of god and similar secular examples of the founding documents but minority religions were for eliminating religious wording from the documents. then jacoby elludes to the fact that as religions gained in stregnth, they began to oppose the seperation. interesting perspective that an organized religions' opinions changed based on their strength as an organization. political posturing from day one in the country that still survives today. agreeing to certain measures only when it suits the organizations needs instead of based on a foundation of belief, wow. that is sad but is what i have come to expect from most organizations, of religious nature or not. that is simply the nature of man kind to look out for itself by twisting the nature of the arguement to it's own benefit at any given point in time. fantastic opening to the book. i have long sought to read more about jefferson but now i am 100% committed to learning more about this man's life. |
|||
|
|
||||
- Member Introductions & Journals
- BookTalk News & Development
- Religion, Philosophy & the Arts
- Politics, Current Events & History
- Science, Nature & Technology
- General Discussion & Miscellaneous Topics
- Book Suggestions, Polls, & Reviews
- Additional Book Discussions
- Godless in America: Conversations With an Atheist - by George A. Ricker
- Interventions - by Noam Chomsky
- Religious Expression and the American Constitution - by Franklyn S. Haiman
- Deep Economy: The Wealth of Communities and the Durable Future - by Bill McKibben
- The God Delusion - by Richard Dawkins
- The Third Chimpanzee: The Evolution and Future of the Human Animal - by Jared Diamond
- The Woman in the Dunes - by Abe Kobo
- Evolution vs. Creationism: An Introduction - by Eugenie Scott
- The Omnivore's Dilemma: A Natural History of Four Meals - by Michael Pollan
- I, Claudius: From the Autobiography of Tiberius Claudius, Born 10 B.C., Murdered and Deified A.D. 54 - by Robert Graves
- Breaking the Spell: Religion as a Natural Phenomenon - by Daniel Dennett
- A Peace to End All Peace: The Fall of the Ottoman Empire and the Creation of the Modern Middle East - by David Fromkin
- The Time Traveler's Wife - by Audrey Niffenegger
- The End of Faith: Religion, Terror, and the Future of Reason - by Sam Harris
- Ender's Game - by Orson Scott Card
- The Curious Incident of the Dog in the Night-Time - by Mark Haddon
- Value & Virtue in a Godless Universe - by Erik J. Wielenberg
- The March: A Novel - by E.L. Doctorow
- The Ethical Brain - by Michael Gazzaniga
- Freethinkers: A History of American Secularism - by Susan Jacoby
- Collapse: How Societies Choose to Fail or Succeed - by Jared Diamond
- The Battle for God - by Karen Armstrong
- The Future of Life - by Edward O. Wilson
- What is Good? The Search for the Best Way to Live - by A.C. Grayling
- Civilization and It's Enemies: The Next Stage of History - by Lee Harris
- Pale Blue Dot: A Vision of the Human Future in Space - by Carl Sagan
- How We Believe: Science, Skepticism, and the Search for God - by Michael Shermer
- Looking For Spinoza: Joy, Sorrow, and the Feeling Brain - by Antonio Damasio
- Lies (And the Lying Liars Who Tell Them): A Fair and Balanced Look at the Right - by Al Franken
- The Red Queen: Sex and the Evolution of Human Nature - by Matt Ridley
- The Blank Slate: The Modern Denial of Human Nature - by Stephen Pinker
- Unweaving the Rainbow: Science, Delusion and the Appetite for Wonder - by Richard Dawkins
- Atheism: A Reader - edited by S. T. Joshi
- Global Brain: The Evolution of Mass Mind from the Big Bang to the 21st Century - by Howard Bloom
- The Lucifer Principle: A Scientific Expedition into the Forces of History - by Howard Bloom
- Guns, Germs and Steel: The Fates of Human Societies - by Jared Diamond
- Demon-Haunted World: Science As a Candle in the Dark - by Carl Sagan
- Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee: An Indian History of the American West - by Dee Alexander Brown
- Future Shock - by Alvin Toffler

