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- Godless in America: Conversations With an Atheist - by George A. Ricker
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- Deep Economy: The Wealth of Communities and the Durable Future - by Bill McKibben
- The God Delusion - by Richard Dawkins
- The Third Chimpanzee: The Evolution and Future of the Human Animal - by Jared Diamond
- The Woman in the Dunes - by Abe Kobo
- Evolution vs. Creationism: An Introduction - by Eugenie Scott
- The Omnivore's Dilemma: A Natural History of Four Meals - by Michael Pollan
- I, Claudius: From the Autobiography of Tiberius Claudius, Born 10 B.C., Murdered and Deified A.D. 54 - by Robert Graves
- Breaking the Spell: Religion as a Natural Phenomenon - by Daniel Dennett
- A Peace to End All Peace: The Fall of the Ottoman Empire and the Creation of the Modern Middle East - by David Fromkin
- The Time Traveler's Wife - by Audrey Niffenegger
- The End of Faith: Religion, Terror, and the Future of Reason - by Sam Harris
- Ender's Game - by Orson Scott Card
- The Curious Incident of the Dog in the Night-Time - by Mark Haddon
- Value & Virtue in a Godless Universe - by Erik J. Wielenberg
- The March: A Novel - by E.L. Doctorow
- The Ethical Brain - by Michael Gazzaniga
- Freethinkers: A History of American Secularism - by Susan Jacoby
- Collapse: How Societies Choose to Fail or Succeed - by Jared Diamond
- The Battle for God - by Karen Armstrong
- The Future of Life - by Edward O. Wilson
- What is Good? The Search for the Best Way to Live - by A.C. Grayling
- Civilization and It's Enemies: The Next Stage of History - by Lee Harris
- Pale Blue Dot: A Vision of the Human Future in Space - by Carl Sagan
- How We Believe: Science, Skepticism, and the Search for God - by Michael Shermer
- Looking For Spinoza: Joy, Sorrow, and the Feeling Brain - by Antonio Damasio
- Lies (And the Lying Liars Who Tell Them): A Fair and Balanced Look at the Right - by Al Franken
- The Red Queen: Sex and the Evolution of Human Nature - by Matt Ridley
- The Blank Slate: The Modern Denial of Human Nature - by Stephen Pinker
- Unweaving the Rainbow: Science, Delusion and the Appetite for Wonder - by Richard Dawkins
- Atheism: A Reader - edited by S. T. Joshi
- Global Brain: The Evolution of Mass Mind from the Big Bang to the 21st Century - by Howard Bloom
- The Lucifer Principle: A Scientific Expedition into the Forces of History - by Howard Bloom
- Guns, Germs and Steel: The Fates of Human Societies - by Jared Diamond
- Demon-Haunted World: Science As a Candle in the Dark - by Carl Sagan
- Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee: An Indian History of the American West - by Dee Alexander Brown
- Future Shock - by Alvin Toffler
Ch. 2 - The Age of Reason and Unreason
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 Chris OConnor |
Ch. 2 - The Age of Reason and Unreason |
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Indisputable BookTalk Master
Posts: 9511 06/27/05 23:14:23 BookTalk Owner |
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Chris OConnor |
Re: Ch. 2 - The Age of Reason and Unreason | #1 | ||
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Indisputable BookTalk Master
Posts: 9511 06/28/05 14:53:08 BookTalk Owner |
Many of us will be reading Thomas Paine's "The Age of Reason" concurrently with Freethinkers. You're welcome to join us!
You can read the entire text online for free. Please visit the thread I've created in the Additional Book Discussions forum for links to The Age of Reason and to jump into the discussion. Chris |
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misterpessimistic |
Re: Ch. 2 - The Age of Reason and Unreason | #2 | ||
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Indisputable BookTalk Master
Posts: 4113 07/05/05 19:39:42 Indisputable BookTalk Master |
Oh how sad it was to read about how Paine was treated by his one time friends. It goes to show that people will only love you while you pay them lip service.
Paine was a man of reason and principle. He was a major force in the Revolution, yet he was symbolically spat upon when he published his thoughts on religion. Fickle people of a fickle faith. Paine was a corset maker...I can relate to him there too, as I contemplated corsetry myself...when I was running my leather business! Mr. P. The one thing of which I am positive is that there is much of which to be negative - Mr. P.
The pain in hell has two sides. The kind you can touch with your hand; the kind you can feel in your heart...Scorsese's "Mean Streets" I came to kick ass and chew Bubble Gum...and I am all out of Bubble Gum - They Live, Roddy Piper |
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MichaelangeloGlossolalia |
Re: Ch. 2 - The Age of Reason and Unreason | #3 | ||
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Posts: 85 07/14/05 21:17:31 Freshman |
I actually like it when fundamentalists insult me. I turn the other cheek, in a way that anyone watching can see the irony in technicolor.
Sadly, some atheists just insult the fundie. Then the fundie goes and tells his friends, "That guy hated me, just because I love Jesus!" How much more satisfying when the fundie comes back and says, "I'm sorry, that was very unchristian of me. I guess not all atheists are hateful toward Christians." Or, if that doesn't happen (it actually does happen surprisingly often) the people watching shake their heads and remark on the spectacle of an atheist behaving in a more "Christlike" manner than the one who defends Jesus as the son of God. Michael |
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Jeremy1952 |
Re: Ch. 2 - The Age of Reason and Unreason | #4 | ||
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Posts: 907 07/17/05 10:35:11 Enlightened One |
Amen brotha pessimistic. I used to do the insult thing; Phooey! I see part of my purpose in chatting in Religion:x rooms as learning to stay equanimical and rational, just as Mr. P says. And although it doesn't come up that much in real life it's good to be prepared. I've gone a bit to the other extreme; I will get on freethinkers for being poinlessly insulting.
If you make yourself really small, you can externalize virtually everything. Daniel Dennett, 1984 |
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ginof |
Re: Ch. 2 - The Age of Reason and Unreason | #5 | ||
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Posts: 207 08/20/05 02:16:05 Ph.D. |
I actually saw a tom paine statue last weekend. it's in morristown, nj. It was erected in 1950. I hear there is another one in new rochelle, ny where he died.
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ginof |
Re: Ch. 2 - The Age of Reason and Unreason | #6 | ||
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Posts: 207 08/20/05 02:20:55 Ph.D. |
Mr. P,
I told you that Paine could piss people off. What about this guy Palmer Quote:. Now THAT is going to piss off a christian. It is the 'in your face thing' that will really rile people up. |
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ginof |
Re: Ch. 2 - The Age of Reason and Unreason | #7 | ||
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Posts: 207 08/20/05 02:26:38 Ph.D. |
Sam Adams words on p61 are very interesting and pragmatic. He's telling Paine not to be so 'in your face' about it and just be happy that he can voice his opinion without landing in jail. I'm not sure I agree with him, though. I'm sure Paine felt it his duty to point out what he felt was wrong with things and he was willing to pay the price for it. However, I think he could have gone about it in a way that would have been more successful if he had not been so confrontational. Being confrontational just makes people defensive. It ususally will not change their minds on anything.
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misterpessimistic |
Re: Ch. 2 - The Age of Reason and Unreason | #8 | ||
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Indisputable BookTalk Master
Posts: 4113 09/21/05 23:20:08 Indisputable BookTalk Master |
Quote: Yes. And i feel the same way. It is an honorable way to live...maybe lonely, but being right is usually a lonely place to be. The few see things so clear that they are doomed to be outcasts. Mr. P. The one thing of which I am positive is that there is much of which to be negative - Mr. P.
The pain in hell has two sides. The kind you can touch with your hand; the kind you can feel in your heart...Scorsese's "Mean Streets" I came to kick ass and chew Bubble Gum...and I am all out of Bubble Gum - They Live, Roddy Piper |
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misterpessimistic |
Re: Ch. 2 - The Age of Reason and Unreason | #9 | ||
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Indisputable BookTalk Master
Posts: 4113 09/21/05 23:21:45 Indisputable BookTalk Master |
This has to be one of my favorite lines:
Pg. 36: Quote: Classic. I love it. Mr. P. The one thing of which I am positive is that there is much of which to be negative - Mr. P.
The pain in hell has two sides. The kind you can touch with your hand; the kind you can feel in your heart...Scorsese's "Mean Streets" I came to kick ass and chew Bubble Gum...and I am all out of Bubble Gum - They Live, Roddy Piper |
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misterpessimistic |
Re: Ch. 2 - The Age of Reason and Unreason | #10 | ||
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Indisputable BookTalk Master
Posts: 4113 09/22/05 19:56:34 Indisputable BookTalk Master |
Quote: That is kinda ironic. Jacoby also mentions that Paine founded the first American anti-slavery society. Another notch in the belt for the man of Reason. This transference is a human thing though, not necessarily American only. Like the poor person who becomes rich and then all of a sudden looks down on the poor. Like blacks that would discriminate against ANYONE else after what they have been through. It seems to me that most people, upon reaching a 'better' level of existence forget quite easily about the levels they have risen from. Yesterdays persecuted are to days persecutes. Mr. P. The one thing of which I am positive is that there is much of which to be negative - Mr. P.
The pain in hell has two sides. The kind you can touch with your hand; the kind you can feel in your heart...Scorsese's "Mean Streets" I came to kick ass and chew Bubble Gum...and I am all out of Bubble Gum - They Live, Roddy Piper |
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misterpessimistic |
Re: Ch. 2 - The Age of Reason and Unreason | #11 | ||
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Indisputable BookTalk Master
Posts: 4113 09/22/05 20:03:17 Indisputable BookTalk Master |
A testament to Paine's unrelenting faith in his message:
Pg. 41 Quote: This is something most people cannot muster when their favorite chips fall. THIS, IMO, is what reason is all about...dealing with the ever changing reality around us. Understanding that just because our knowledge has been called into question, that is no reason to make excuses by inventing illusions or making reality a shade and indeed an illusion. Instead of falling to the knees to pray, the person of reason falls upon their intellect and tries to understand what was, what changed, and how this new knowledge changes the way we need to comprehend. And it is based on a reality so much more firm than that of any faith, IMO. Mr. P. The one thing of which I am positive is that there is much of which to be negative - Mr. P.
The pain in hell has two sides. The kind you can touch with your hand; the kind you can feel in your heart...Scorsese's "Mean Streets" I came to kick ass and chew Bubble Gum...and I am all out of Bubble Gum - They Live, Roddy Piper |
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misterpessimistic |
Re: Ch. 2 - The Age of Reason and Unreason | #12 | ||
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Indisputable BookTalk Master
Posts: 4113 09/22/05 20:07:53 Indisputable BookTalk Master |
Jefferson:
Pg. 45 Quote: So much for the Xtian way oward brotherhood. he is right. Many say that a humanist way to morality may not be enough...I say give us a damn shot. We CANNOT do any worse than 2000 of Xtianity has done! Mr. P. The one thing of which I am positive is that there is much of which to be negative - Mr. P.
The pain in hell has two sides. The kind you can touch with your hand; the kind you can feel in your heart...Scorsese's "Mean Streets" I came to kick ass and chew Bubble Gum...and I am all out of Bubble Gum - They Live, Roddy Piper |
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misterpessimistic |
Re: Ch. 2 - The Age of Reason and Unreason | #13 | ||
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Indisputable BookTalk Master
Posts: 4113 09/22/05 20:13:40 Indisputable BookTalk Master |
G. Adolph Koch:
Pg. 46 Quote: This is all us evil secularists want. It shows that we all CAN get along. It is when people try to PUSH their faith and beliefs on those who do not want it that trouble brews. The attack on religion is imagined; the attacks on secular views, humanism and atheism are anything but. That is proselytization...and it will be met with resistance. Is that not easy to see? Why pursue that course when all it can do is cause division? It tells me that division is all that these crusaders want. Mr. P. The one thing of which I am positive is that there is much of which to be negative - Mr. P.
The pain in hell has two sides. The kind you can touch with your hand; the kind you can feel in your heart...Scorsese's "Mean Streets" I came to kick ass and chew Bubble Gum...and I am all out of Bubble Gum - They Live, Roddy Piper |
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misterpessimistic |
Re: Ch. 2 - The Age of Reason and Unreason | #14 | ||
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Indisputable BookTalk Master
Posts: 4113 09/22/05 20:17:39 Indisputable BookTalk Master |
Pg. 50
Quote: Irrational beliefs turned to an economic weapon...gotta love the Human mind huh? Mr. P. The one thing of which I am positive is that there is much of which to be negative - Mr. P.
The pain in hell has two sides. The kind you can touch with your hand; the kind you can feel in your heart...Scorsese's "Mean Streets" I came to kick ass and chew Bubble Gum...and I am all out of Bubble Gum - They Live, Roddy Piper |
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JulianTheApostate |
Re: Ch. 2 - The Age of Reason and Unreason | #15 | ||
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Posts: 254 09/23/05 05:40:20 Smarty Pants |
Following up on Ginof's post, it's ironic that Sam Adams told Paine. (p. 62)
Quote: After all, Adams was one of the most forceful advocates of a revolutionary war. |
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misterpessimistic |
Re: Ch. 2 - The Age of Reason and Unreason | #16 | ||
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Indisputable BookTalk Master
Posts: 4113 09/23/05 07:58:30 Indisputable BookTalk Master |
Yes, but moving toward revolution from oppression is one thing, having continual tumult and factions after the fact is no good. This is why military dictatorships can seize power and then regain order. With the US, there was no powerful military, just cunning revolutionaries and allies who won the war. After that, there was no force to maintain order, but reason prevailed in the end for the most part.
Or am I off the mark? Mr. P. The one thing of which I am positive is that there is much of which to be negative - Mr. P.
The pain in hell has two sides. The kind you can touch with your hand; the kind you can feel in your heart...Scorsese's "Mean Streets" I came to kick ass and chew Bubble Gum...and I am all out of Bubble Gum - They Live, Roddy Piper |
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riverc0il |
Re: Ch. 2 - The Age of Reason and Unreason | #17 | ||
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Posts: 447 01/02/06 19:00:58 Witty&Wise |
wow, just finished chapter two. susan jacoby's writing is excellent and at times intense. i wish i studied this book in high school when we were studying revolutionary war! learning generals, battles, and dates is so dry and boring. jacoby bring history to life and her prose is simply fantastic. in chapter one, i referenced my need to add writings of jefferson to my book collection; after reading chapter two i have concluded that the complete works of thomas paine should also receive placement on my permanent bookshelf. fantastic writing and weaving story telling into history!
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- Godless in America: Conversations With an Atheist - by George A. Ricker
- Interventions - by Noam Chomsky
- Religious Expression and the American Constitution - by Franklyn S. Haiman
- Deep Economy: The Wealth of Communities and the Durable Future - by Bill McKibben
- The God Delusion - by Richard Dawkins
- The Third Chimpanzee: The Evolution and Future of the Human Animal - by Jared Diamond
- The Woman in the Dunes - by Abe Kobo
- Evolution vs. Creationism: An Introduction - by Eugenie Scott
- The Omnivore's Dilemma: A Natural History of Four Meals - by Michael Pollan
- I, Claudius: From the Autobiography of Tiberius Claudius, Born 10 B.C., Murdered and Deified A.D. 54 - by Robert Graves
- Breaking the Spell: Religion as a Natural Phenomenon - by Daniel Dennett
- A Peace to End All Peace: The Fall of the Ottoman Empire and the Creation of the Modern Middle East - by David Fromkin
- The Time Traveler's Wife - by Audrey Niffenegger
- The End of Faith: Religion, Terror, and the Future of Reason - by Sam Harris
- Ender's Game - by Orson Scott Card
- The Curious Incident of the Dog in the Night-Time - by Mark Haddon
- Value & Virtue in a Godless Universe - by Erik J. Wielenberg
- The March: A Novel - by E.L. Doctorow
- The Ethical Brain - by Michael Gazzaniga
- Freethinkers: A History of American Secularism - by Susan Jacoby
- Collapse: How Societies Choose to Fail or Succeed - by Jared Diamond
- The Battle for God - by Karen Armstrong
- The Future of Life - by Edward O. Wilson
- What is Good? The Search for the Best Way to Live - by A.C. Grayling
- Civilization and It's Enemies: The Next Stage of History - by Lee Harris
- Pale Blue Dot: A Vision of the Human Future in Space - by Carl Sagan
- How We Believe: Science, Skepticism, and the Search for God - by Michael Shermer
- Looking For Spinoza: Joy, Sorrow, and the Feeling Brain - by Antonio Damasio
- Lies (And the Lying Liars Who Tell Them): A Fair and Balanced Look at the Right - by Al Franken
- The Red Queen: Sex and the Evolution of Human Nature - by Matt Ridley
- The Blank Slate: The Modern Denial of Human Nature - by Stephen Pinker
- Unweaving the Rainbow: Science, Delusion and the Appetite for Wonder - by Richard Dawkins
- Atheism: A Reader - edited by S. T. Joshi
- Global Brain: The Evolution of Mass Mind from the Big Bang to the 21st Century - by Howard Bloom
- The Lucifer Principle: A Scientific Expedition into the Forces of History - by Howard Bloom
- Guns, Germs and Steel: The Fates of Human Societies - by Jared Diamond
- Demon-Haunted World: Science As a Candle in the Dark - by Carl Sagan
- Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee: An Indian History of the American West - by Dee Alexander Brown
- Future Shock - by Alvin Toffler
