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- The Omnivore's Dilemma: A Natural History of Four Meals - by Michael Pollan
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- Breaking the Spell: Religion as a Natural Phenomenon - by Daniel Dennett
- A Peace to End All Peace: The Fall of the Ottoman Empire and the Creation of the Modern Middle East - by David Fromkin
- The Time Traveler's Wife - by Audrey Niffenegger
- The End of Faith: Religion, Terror, and the Future of Reason - by Sam Harris
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- The Curious Incident of the Dog in the Night-Time - by Mark Haddon
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- Atheism: A Reader - edited by S. T. Joshi
- Global Brain: The Evolution of Mass Mind from the Big Bang to the 21st Century - by Howard Bloom
- The Lucifer Principle: A Scientific Expedition into the Forces of History - by Howard Bloom
- Guns, Germs and Steel: The Fates of Human Societies - by Jared Diamond
- Demon-Haunted World: Science As a Candle in the Dark - by Carl Sagan
- Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee: An Indian History of the American West - by Dee Alexander Brown
- Future Shock - by Alvin Toffler
Ethical Brain: Vonnegut's essay
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tarav |
Ethical Brain: Vonnegut's essay |
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Posts: 1052 10/19/05 16:07:23 Moderator |
On p 69 Gazzaniga mentions Kurt Vonnegut's essay, "Harrison Bergeron". Has anyone read that essay? I have not. It sounds interesting.
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MadArchitect |
Re: Vonnegut's essay | #1 | ||
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Posts: 3169 10/20/05 13:53:47 Indisputable BookTalk Master |
I haven't, but it's on my short list. Vonnegut is an entertaining writer, but I think his social value lies more in the fact that he brings up certain issues, rather than in his actual position on those issues.
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ginof |
Re: Vonnegut's essay | #2 | ||
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Posts: 207 11/01/05 01:32:49 Ph.D. |
I think I've read it, but quite some time ago. It is pretty interesting. Vonnegut is one of my favorite authors, although I don't know if this is where I would pick him up. I read him chronologically starting with "God Bless you Mr. Rosewater" and found it very rewarding
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ginof |
Re: Vonnegut's essay | #3 | ||
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Posts: 207 11/01/05 01:34:29 Ph.D. |
He does bring up issues, but I find his postition the interesting part: Why can't we just all be decent to each other? It wouldn't be that horrible. And yet we find ourselves in a world where that doesn't happen. Why?
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tarav |
Re: Ethical Brain: Vonnegut's essay | #4 | ||
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Posts: 1052 11/12/05 12:55:20 Moderator |
Chris- I just noticed that you edited my subject line here. I am not sure why you did that. I thought maybe you did that because you wanted all subject lines in book discussions to begin with the book title. However, there are other subject lines that do not begin with, "Ethical Brain:" that are in this forum and you haven't edited those. Please let me know. If you'd like subject lines to always have the book title, then I'll be sure to do that. I'd also suggest that you let us all know that, so you don't have to go and edit everyone's subject lines.
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Jeremy1952 |
Re: Ethical Brain: Vonnegut's essay | #5 | ||
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Posts: 907 11/13/05 13:11:01 Enlightened One |
ginof
Quote:This is a critical intersection between religion and morality. I would assert that "being decent to each other" may be a fundamental moral value. Islam teaches that one is not supposed to be decent to infidels, as do many Christian sects. In fact religions that tell you to be nice to those who don't believe in the same sky fairy seem to be the exception rather than the rule. Early humans lived in small groups who were fearful of one another, and the fear created self fulfilling prophecy: people who are afraid of you are dangerous to you. Perhaps early on religious belief brought people who otherwise would have hated and feared each other together; unfortunately it does so by creating a larger "us" which still requires a "them". It seems to me that the challenge for long term survival as a species is for most people, most of the time to see human kind as "us". Such a view is quite unnatural though, and will not easily be achieved. If you make yourself really small, you can externalize virtually everything. Daniel Dennett, 1984 |
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ginof |
Re: Ethical Brain: Vonnegut's essay | #6 | ||
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Posts: 207 11/21/05 00:52:02 Ph.D. |
Jeremy, are you making an argument that we dump religion?
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MichaelangeloGlossolalia |
Re: Ethical Brain: Vonnegut's essay | #7 | ||
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Posts: 85 12/01/05 22:28:03 Freshman |
In order to be decent to another person, one must either expect to be treated decently in return, or have an overriding belief in the importance of decency, even toward those who may not reciprocate.
It may be closest to human nature to treat others as they have treated you in the past. But blind tit-for-tat reactions can lead to endless loops of retaliation, so perhaps there's some mechanism to override tit-for-tat when there is greater need (say, to reconcile tribal feuds in order to unite against a common enemy). There's also the problem of people being programmed (by an abusive childhood or some string of misfortunes, say) to expect to be betrayed, and then lashing out pre-emptively. "Do unto others as you expect them to do unto you" is a common attitude in gangs and dysfunctional families. Nations too can fall into that pattern... it can take many difficult acts of trust-building to override that kind of thinking when it becomes widespread. Most people's behavior will be some combination of the following: Golden Rule: Do unto others as you would want them to do unto you. Steel Rule: Do unto others as they have done unto you in the past. Iron Rule: Do unto others before they do unto you. Hot Potato Rule: Do unto the next person what the last person did unto you. The question is, what mechanisms exist to restore ecological balance to a culture which has adopted strategies that undermine its cohesiveness or ability to adapt? Michael |
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MadArchitect |
Re: Ethical Brain: Vonnegut's essay | #8 | ||
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Posts: 3169 12/02/05 15:17:06 Indisputable BookTalk Master |
The question is, what mechanisms exist to restore ecological balance to a culture which has adopted strategies that undermine its cohesiveness or ability to adapt?
I'd say most of the "mechanisms" are probably what we'd consider catastophic. Depopulation, for one. The outbreak of disease is a possibility, particularly if the ethical strategies tend to undermine hygenic standards or result in congested urban areas. But before we even begin to consider what might allow a culture to rebound, we should probably ask whether or not they often rebound. On a low level, I'd say that probably happens on a piecemeal basis all the time, but if a culture has really adopted an unbalancing ethos, it's probably fatal more often than not. Perhaps that's more true of large civilizations, like the Roman Empire, or even the Japanese Shogunate, than it is of relatively small cultures. Tribes likely adapt well on the fly; not so with nations. |
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- Member Introductions & Journals
- BookTalk News & Development
- Religion, Philosophy & the Arts
- Politics, Current Events & History
- Science, Nature & Technology
- General Discussion & Miscellaneous Topics
- Book Suggestions, Polls, & Reviews
- Additional Book Discussions
- Godless in America: Conversations With an Atheist - by George A. Ricker
- Interventions - by Noam Chomsky
- Religious Expression and the American Constitution - by Franklyn S. Haiman
- Deep Economy: The Wealth of Communities and the Durable Future - by Bill McKibben
- The God Delusion - by Richard Dawkins
- The Third Chimpanzee: The Evolution and Future of the Human Animal - by Jared Diamond
- The Woman in the Dunes - by Abe Kobo
- Evolution vs. Creationism: An Introduction - by Eugenie Scott
- The Omnivore's Dilemma: A Natural History of Four Meals - by Michael Pollan
- I, Claudius: From the Autobiography of Tiberius Claudius, Born 10 B.C., Murdered and Deified A.D. 54 - by Robert Graves
- Breaking the Spell: Religion as a Natural Phenomenon - by Daniel Dennett
- A Peace to End All Peace: The Fall of the Ottoman Empire and the Creation of the Modern Middle East - by David Fromkin
- The Time Traveler's Wife - by Audrey Niffenegger
- The End of Faith: Religion, Terror, and the Future of Reason - by Sam Harris
- Ender's Game - by Orson Scott Card
- The Curious Incident of the Dog in the Night-Time - by Mark Haddon
- Value & Virtue in a Godless Universe - by Erik J. Wielenberg
- The March: A Novel - by E.L. Doctorow
- The Ethical Brain - by Michael Gazzaniga
- Freethinkers: A History of American Secularism - by Susan Jacoby
- Collapse: How Societies Choose to Fail or Succeed - by Jared Diamond
- The Battle for God - by Karen Armstrong
- The Future of Life - by Edward O. Wilson
- What is Good? The Search for the Best Way to Live - by A.C. Grayling
- Civilization and It's Enemies: The Next Stage of History - by Lee Harris
- Pale Blue Dot: A Vision of the Human Future in Space - by Carl Sagan
- How We Believe: Science, Skepticism, and the Search for God - by Michael Shermer
- Looking For Spinoza: Joy, Sorrow, and the Feeling Brain - by Antonio Damasio
- Lies (And the Lying Liars Who Tell Them): A Fair and Balanced Look at the Right - by Al Franken
- The Red Queen: Sex and the Evolution of Human Nature - by Matt Ridley
- The Blank Slate: The Modern Denial of Human Nature - by Stephen Pinker
- Unweaving the Rainbow: Science, Delusion and the Appetite for Wonder - by Richard Dawkins
- Atheism: A Reader - edited by S. T. Joshi
- Global Brain: The Evolution of Mass Mind from the Big Bang to the 21st Century - by Howard Bloom
- The Lucifer Principle: A Scientific Expedition into the Forces of History - by Howard Bloom
- Guns, Germs and Steel: The Fates of Human Societies - by Jared Diamond
- Demon-Haunted World: Science As a Candle in the Dark - by Carl Sagan
- Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee: An Indian History of the American West - by Dee Alexander Brown
- Future Shock - by Alvin Toffler
