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- Godless in America: Conversations With an Atheist - by George A. Ricker
- Interventions - by Noam Chomsky
- Religious Expression and the American Constitution - by Franklyn S. Haiman
- Deep Economy: The Wealth of Communities and the Durable Future - by Bill McKibben
- The God Delusion - by Richard Dawkins
- The Third Chimpanzee: The Evolution and Future of the Human Animal - by Jared Diamond
- The Woman in the Dunes - by Abe Kobo
- Evolution vs. Creationism: An Introduction - by Eugenie Scott
- The Omnivore's Dilemma: A Natural History of Four Meals - by Michael Pollan
- I, Claudius: From the Autobiography of Tiberius Claudius, Born 10 B.C., Murdered and Deified A.D. 54 - by Robert Graves
- Breaking the Spell: Religion as a Natural Phenomenon - by Daniel Dennett
- A Peace to End All Peace: The Fall of the Ottoman Empire and the Creation of the Modern Middle East - by David Fromkin
- The Time Traveler's Wife - by Audrey Niffenegger
- The End of Faith: Religion, Terror, and the Future of Reason - by Sam Harris
- Ender's Game - by Orson Scott Card
- The Curious Incident of the Dog in the Night-Time - by Mark Haddon
- Value & Virtue in a Godless Universe - by Erik J. Wielenberg
- The March: A Novel - by E.L. Doctorow
- The Ethical Brain - by Michael Gazzaniga
- Freethinkers: A History of American Secularism - by Susan Jacoby
- Collapse: How Societies Choose to Fail or Succeed - by Jared Diamond
- The Battle for God - by Karen Armstrong
- The Future of Life - by Edward O. Wilson
- What is Good? The Search for the Best Way to Live - by A.C. Grayling
- Civilization and It's Enemies: The Next Stage of History - by Lee Harris
- Pale Blue Dot: A Vision of the Human Future in Space - by Carl Sagan
- How We Believe: Science, Skepticism, and the Search for God - by Michael Shermer
- Looking For Spinoza: Joy, Sorrow, and the Feeling Brain - by Antonio Damasio
- Lies (And the Lying Liars Who Tell Them): A Fair and Balanced Look at the Right - by Al Franken
- The Red Queen: Sex and the Evolution of Human Nature - by Matt Ridley
- The Blank Slate: The Modern Denial of Human Nature - by Stephen Pinker
- Unweaving the Rainbow: Science, Delusion and the Appetite for Wonder - by Richard Dawkins
- Atheism: A Reader - edited by S. T. Joshi
- Global Brain: The Evolution of Mass Mind from the Big Bang to the 21st Century - by Howard Bloom
- The Lucifer Principle: A Scientific Expedition into the Forces of History - by Howard Bloom
- Guns, Germs and Steel: The Fates of Human Societies - by Jared Diamond
- Demon-Haunted World: Science As a Candle in the Dark - by Carl Sagan
- Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee: An Indian History of the American West - by Dee Alexander Brown
- Future Shock - by Alvin Toffler
Ethical Brain: Chapter 9
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Chris OConnor |
Ethical Brain: Chapter 9 |
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Indisputable BookTalk Master
Posts: 9511 09/30/05 15:30:32 BookTalk Owner |
This thread is for discussing Ch. 9 - The Believing Brain. You can post within this framework or create your own threads.
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MadArchitect |
Re: Ch. 9 - The Believing Brain | #1 | ||
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Posts: 3169 10/17/05 18:59:18 Indisputable BookTalk Master |
Among other things, this chapter left me with a number of questions concerning the methodology and rationale that led to the conclusions Gazzaniga has espoused. And it seems to me that the only way to really get answers to those questions is to do a hell of a lot more reading -- Gazzaniga leaves a lot of gaps in the argument that are presumably covered more in depth in the scientific abstracts he references in the endnotes. I probably won't get to many, if any at all, of those abstracts, but I thought I'd raise the questions for the benefit of the group, or on the chance that someone else picked something out of the reading that I missed.
1. What does it mean to say that part of the left hemisphere "interprets" or "makes sense of.. the events in our life"? Are we talking about making things meaningful in the sense of appraising their significance, about translating them into modes of practical action, simply arranging them into forms that we can then consciously assess? What? 2. All of the case studies Gazzaniga has performed and synopsized in on pages 148-150 were performed on people with rather severe, pre-existing, neurological damage. What methods did he and his staff use to ensure that this damage didn't skew their results and conclusions? How can we feel sure that that these conclusions hold equally true in undamaged brains? 3. In talking about the response of people surveyed about a particular ethical dilemma, Gazzaniga concluded that "what is different is how they interpret their response, which is based on how they think and feel about the issue at hand." (p. 153) The emphasis is Gazzaniga's but it hits the crucial word. His conclusions seems to presuppose that the moral response necessarily precedes the conscious thought which explains it. But how do Gazzaniga and Marc Hauser (whose research Gazzaniga has employed here) justify that presupposition, especially sense the research was carried out over a web site? Why should we feel inclined to accept that order over the more traditional view that we think consciously about the problem in order to produce the moral response? Would it not be just as plausible to suppose that, in completely novel dilemmas, the person must do some conscious cognitive work to arrive at a moral response, but that such dilemmas may then be generalized such that the individual bypasses the formerly necessary cognitive work by associating certain general features of a problem with a remembered moral response? 4. How is it determined that everyone from van Gogh to Socrates suffered from TLE? Van Gogh's case is, fortunately, well documented, since Van Gogh himself produced a large body of biographical material. But Socrates left no writings, and first hand descriptions are of dubious certainty, since at least one of his contemporary biographers used Socrates as his mouthpiece in fictionalized dialogues. The other historical figures represent a range of biographical certainty, so what purpose is achieved in casting light on the agency behind their achievements? More later. |
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JulianTheApostate |
Re: Ch. 9 - The Believing Brain | #2 | ||
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Posts: 254 11/05/05 01:53:36 Smarty Pants |
Ramachandran's book Phantoms in the Brain, which I recommended earlier, has a lot more details about the correlation between certain brain conditions and beliefs, including religious beliefs. Ramachandran was more convincing, though the concerns MadArchitect raised were still present.
It was ironic when Gazzaniga reported that many people don't justify their moral judgments. After all, my complaint about the book is that Gazzaniga doesn't justify his own conclusions. Even though I'm an atheist, Gazzaniga's implication that religious believers are less rational than scientists annoyed me. As I see it, everyone's beliefs include some irrationality and inconsistencies, and it's arrogant to dismiss people you disagree with because their views come across as irrational. |
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tarav |
Re: Ch. 9 - The Believing Brain | #3 | ||
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Posts: 1052 11/12/05 13:07:30 Moderator |
Mad wondered how it was determined that all of those famous people suffered from TLE. I also wish that Gazzaniga would have elaborated on that. I should point out that Gazzaniga did not say that these people definitely had TLE. His sentence reads: "Other famous people thought to have had TLE include..." The italics are mine. Also, Gazzaniga gives a footnote on Van Gogh's TLE. Perhaps the text on Van Gogh would shed some light on this manner. If anyone has read about Van Gogh's TLE, I'd be interested to hear about it.
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MadArchitect |
Re: Ch. 9 - The Believing Brain | #4 | ||
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Posts: 3169 11/12/05 13:59:18 Indisputable BookTalk Master |
I forget the title at the moment, and I don't have my notes with me at the moment, but I recall that Gazzaniga was synopsizing information from another book, which goes more in depth on the TLE question. So ultimately, I think the question I raised earlier has to be referred to another text. That's a bit unfortunate for Gazzaniga's argument, I think, but to some extent that kind of thing is necessary in the interests of brevity.
For my part, until I get a chance to read that other book -- and I do have the title written down elsewhere -- the tendency is towards assuming that the list of names is part of a habit of historical revisionism that seems fairly common in pathological medicine. Anytime someone elaborates on a newly described disease, someone feels inclined to attribute it to any major historical figures who exhibited characteristics similar to the symptoms of their pet disease. Which is, I think, part of a larger phenomenon of trying not merely to understand the natural world and our place in it -- which is the more noble goal of the sciences -- but to explain it away, and particularly to explain away the differences that distinguish "great" historical figures from the rest of the rabble. There's an ideology underlying that habit, it seems to me -- the weaker strain of the modern love of the ideal of equality. |
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Jeremy1952 |
Re: Ch. 9 - The Believing Brain | #5 | ||
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Posts: 907 11/13/05 12:46:08 Enlightened One |
MadArchitect
Quote:Brilliant, thank you. There was something about the discussion that troubled me and I couldn't put my finger on it. It almost sounds like a variety of "intern syndrome". JulianTheApostate Quote:As you say, all of us have our rational and irrational ideas. What we know about believers is that they advertise one giant irrational idea that the non-believer does hold. Some non-believers advertise their irrational ideas but most don't; so it is an unknown about them. I don't recall Gazzaniga saying the person "is" irrational but it clearly is a data point. If you make yourself really small, you can externalize virtually everything. Daniel Dennett, 1984 |
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MadArchitect |
Re: Ch. 9 - The Believing Brain | #6 | ||
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Posts: 3169 11/13/05 16:21:13 Indisputable BookTalk Master |
Some non-believers advertise their irrational ideas but most don't; so it is an unknown about them.
There's an historical element to that argument. It may turn out that the social, cultural or even scientific truths espoused by modern "non-believers" will one day be regarded -- and with good reason -- as irrational at root. I'm not saying that it's an inevitability, but historically it has been true that one generation's assumptions of what is reasonable are barely discernable myths to the generation that follows. |
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ginof |
Re: Ch. 9 - The Believing Brain | #7 | ||
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Posts: 207 11/26/05 15:47:42 Ph.D. |
Julian, Do you really think the author was dismissing the religious? I found it more of a discusssion of possible rational explanations for the phenomenon they experienced, vs a dismissal.
Additionally, in the second half of p 159, he talks about two ways of looking at this issue, which I found very insightful. Specifically, some would argue that an organic explanation would negate the reality of the beliefs, but others would argue that this is the way religious experience works. To be honest, I had not thought about it that way before. While I personally don't agree with that idea, I can see how others could and therefore find it insightful in understanding those with the other opinion. |
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ginof |
Re: Ch. 9 - The Believing Brain | #8 | ||
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Posts: 207 11/26/05 19:35:24 Ph.D. |
Quote: - David Sloan Wilson, Darwin's Cathederal: Evolution, religion and the Nature of Society Wow, what a brilliant insight! As a person who is not religious, this really describes the positive aspects of religion to me. |
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MadArchitect |
Re: Ch. 9 - The Believing Brain | #9 | ||
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Posts: 3169 11/28/05 20:43:40 Indisputable BookTalk Master |
ginof: Julian, Do you really think the author was dismissing the religious? I found it more of a discusssion of possible rational explanations for the phenomenon they experienced, vs a dismissal.
Not addressed to me, I know, but yes, I think he was trying to bring religious belief into question. Gazzaniga was being fairly diplomatic, but in trying to find a naturalistic explanation for the existence of religious belief I think he meant to imply that religion is invalid. |
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JulianTheApostate |
Re: Ch. 9 - The Believing Brain | #10 | ||
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Posts: 254 12/03/05 05:26:34 Smarty Pants |
The next-to-last paragraph of the chapter starts with this:
Quote: And here's the first sentence of the last paragraph: Quote: In other words, scientists understand the real world while religious believers are out of touch. While he doesn't say so explicitly, his dismissive attitude towards religion is apparent. |
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tarav |
Re: Ch. 9 - The Believing Brain | #11 | ||
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Posts: 1052 12/06/05 17:45:36 Moderator |
I know that Mad had some questions about the left-hemisphere interpreter. I have some questions about it too. On p 149, Gazzaniga says, "The left-hemishpere interpreter is not only a master of belief creation, but it will stick to its belief system no matter what." Could it be that people lacking religious belief have an underdevelped left-hemisphere interpreter? Could it be that religious people have an over-developed left hemisphere interpreter? Is there any mean against which neurologists can compare this area of the brain or as Mad mentioned, do we have only damaged brains to consider? Is there any way to diagnose problems with the interpreter? There may not be definite answers to these questions, but like many questions Mad and others have posed, I feel they should be voiced. All comments are welcome!
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ginof |
Re: Ch. 9 - The Believing Brain | #12 | ||
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Posts: 207 12/06/05 23:10:36 Ph.D. |
tara,
you've got some good points there. I don't know the answers either, perhaps we can bring it up in the author chat. An intersting idea is "what is normal?" just because the 'average' (i.e. mean) measurement is X does not mean that humans should be that way. A good example of this is americans and weight. We can't just say that the average weight is the right one, because we know we are fat. the same may be true with brain function. Just because the average level of chemical X is some amount does not mean that is the 'correct' amount. Diet or other factors may have skewed us over time. |
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tarav |
Re: Ch. 9 - The Believing Brain | #13 | ||
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Posts: 1052 12/08/05 22:05:40 Moderator |
Gino said, "tara, you've got some good points there. I don't know the answers either, perhaps we can bring it up in the author chat. An intersting idea is "what is normal?" just because the 'average' (i.e. mean) measurement is X does not mean that humans should be that way."
Thank you for saying I had some good points! I will reciprocate and say that your point about normalcy is a good one as well. Even considering mean, median, mode, standard deviations, and all of that other stuff I wish I paid more attention to in my probability and statistics class wouldn't necessarily help us determine normal brain states. |
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MadArchitect |
Re: Ch. 9 - The Believing Brain | #14 | ||
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Posts: 3169 12/09/05 15:34:30 Indisputable BookTalk Master |
It's probably important to distinguish between normalcy as the mean or median of actually existing states, and normalcy as the mean or median of ideal states. When we're looking to normalize people, we're usually looking to make them conform to whatever ideal state we have in mind. While that ideal is probably condition by our experience of actually existing states, it isn't necessarily identical to the mean of those states. In support of that idea, we can summon up that old (at least since the 50s) paradox: How many people do you know who are actually normal?
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- Member Introductions & Journals
- BookTalk News & Development
- Religion, Philosophy & the Arts
- Politics, Current Events & History
- Science, Nature & Technology
- General Discussion & Miscellaneous Topics
- Book Suggestions, Polls, & Reviews
- Additional Book Discussions
- Godless in America: Conversations With an Atheist - by George A. Ricker
- Interventions - by Noam Chomsky
- Religious Expression and the American Constitution - by Franklyn S. Haiman
- Deep Economy: The Wealth of Communities and the Durable Future - by Bill McKibben
- The God Delusion - by Richard Dawkins
- The Third Chimpanzee: The Evolution and Future of the Human Animal - by Jared Diamond
- The Woman in the Dunes - by Abe Kobo
- Evolution vs. Creationism: An Introduction - by Eugenie Scott
- The Omnivore's Dilemma: A Natural History of Four Meals - by Michael Pollan
- I, Claudius: From the Autobiography of Tiberius Claudius, Born 10 B.C., Murdered and Deified A.D. 54 - by Robert Graves
- Breaking the Spell: Religion as a Natural Phenomenon - by Daniel Dennett
- A Peace to End All Peace: The Fall of the Ottoman Empire and the Creation of the Modern Middle East - by David Fromkin
- The Time Traveler's Wife - by Audrey Niffenegger
- The End of Faith: Religion, Terror, and the Future of Reason - by Sam Harris
- Ender's Game - by Orson Scott Card
- The Curious Incident of the Dog in the Night-Time - by Mark Haddon
- Value & Virtue in a Godless Universe - by Erik J. Wielenberg
- The March: A Novel - by E.L. Doctorow
- The Ethical Brain - by Michael Gazzaniga
- Freethinkers: A History of American Secularism - by Susan Jacoby
- Collapse: How Societies Choose to Fail or Succeed - by Jared Diamond
- The Battle for God - by Karen Armstrong
- The Future of Life - by Edward O. Wilson
- What is Good? The Search for the Best Way to Live - by A.C. Grayling
- Civilization and It's Enemies: The Next Stage of History - by Lee Harris
- Pale Blue Dot: A Vision of the Human Future in Space - by Carl Sagan
- How We Believe: Science, Skepticism, and the Search for God - by Michael Shermer
- Looking For Spinoza: Joy, Sorrow, and the Feeling Brain - by Antonio Damasio
- Lies (And the Lying Liars Who Tell Them): A Fair and Balanced Look at the Right - by Al Franken
- The Red Queen: Sex and the Evolution of Human Nature - by Matt Ridley
- The Blank Slate: The Modern Denial of Human Nature - by Stephen Pinker
- Unweaving the Rainbow: Science, Delusion and the Appetite for Wonder - by Richard Dawkins
- Atheism: A Reader - edited by S. T. Joshi
- Global Brain: The Evolution of Mass Mind from the Big Bang to the 21st Century - by Howard Bloom
- The Lucifer Principle: A Scientific Expedition into the Forces of History - by Howard Bloom
- Guns, Germs and Steel: The Fates of Human Societies - by Jared Diamond
- Demon-Haunted World: Science As a Candle in the Dark - by Carl Sagan
- Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee: An Indian History of the American West - by Dee Alexander Brown
- Future Shock - by Alvin Toffler
