Intrinsic Value seems to be a theme that Wielenberg argues for throughout the text. The concept that certain values are absolute in a naturalist world and that we should all strive to live up to them. Assuming a Godless Universe exists, do you believe there are Intrinsic Values? Feel free to comment and detail your ideas such as perhaps you feel Intrisic Value may exist by Wielenberg did not make a successful or valid arguement or provide enough support or proof.
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- Deep Economy: The Wealth of Communities and the Durable Future - by Bill McKibben
- The God Delusion - by Richard Dawkins
- The Third Chimpanzee: The Evolution and Future of the Human Animal - by Jared Diamond
- The Woman in the Dunes - by Abe Kobo
- Evolution vs. Creationism: An Introduction - by Eugenie Scott
- The Omnivore's Dilemma: A Natural History of Four Meals - by Michael Pollan
- I, Claudius: From the Autobiography of Tiberius Claudius, Born 10 B.C., Murdered and Deified A.D. 54 - by Robert Graves
- Breaking the Spell: Religion as a Natural Phenomenon - by Daniel Dennett
- A Peace to End All Peace: The Fall of the Ottoman Empire and the Creation of the Modern Middle East - by David Fromkin
- The Time Traveler's Wife - by Audrey Niffenegger
- The End of Faith: Religion, Terror, and the Future of Reason - by Sam Harris
- Ender's Game - by Orson Scott Card
- The Curious Incident of the Dog in the Night-Time - by Mark Haddon
- Value & Virtue in a Godless Universe - by Erik J. Wielenberg
- The March: A Novel - by E.L. Doctorow
- The Ethical Brain - by Michael Gazzaniga
- Freethinkers: A History of American Secularism - by Susan Jacoby
- Collapse: How Societies Choose to Fail or Succeed - by Jared Diamond
- The Battle for God - by Karen Armstrong
- The Future of Life - by Edward O. Wilson
- What is Good? The Search for the Best Way to Live - by A.C. Grayling
- Civilization and It's Enemies: The Next Stage of History - by Lee Harris
- Pale Blue Dot: A Vision of the Human Future in Space - by Carl Sagan
- How We Believe: Science, Skepticism, and the Search for God - by Michael Shermer
- Looking For Spinoza: Joy, Sorrow, and the Feeling Brain - by Antonio Damasio
- Lies (And the Lying Liars Who Tell Them): A Fair and Balanced Look at the Right - by Al Franken
- The Red Queen: Sex and the Evolution of Human Nature - by Matt Ridley
- The Blank Slate: The Modern Denial of Human Nature - by Stephen Pinker
- Unweaving the Rainbow: Science, Delusion and the Appetite for Wonder - by Richard Dawkins
- Atheism: A Reader - edited by S. T. Joshi
- Global Brain: The Evolution of Mass Mind from the Big Bang to the 21st Century - by Howard Bloom
- The Lucifer Principle: A Scientific Expedition into the Forces of History - by Howard Bloom
- Guns, Germs and Steel: The Fates of Human Societies - by Jared Diamond
- Demon-Haunted World: Science As a Candle in the Dark - by Carl Sagan
- Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee: An Indian History of the American West - by Dee Alexander Brown
- Future Shock - by Alvin Toffler
Does Intrinsic Value Exist?
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 riverc0il |
Does Intrinsic Value Exist? |
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Posts: 447 01/04/06 20:57:24 Witty&Wise |
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MadArchitect |
Re: Does Intrinsic Value Exist? | #1 | ||
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Posts: 3169 01/05/06 15:35:56 Indisputable BookTalk Master |
Assuming a Godless universe, no. At least, I haven't seen a persuasive argument for it.
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JulianTheApostate |
Re: Does Intrinsic Value Exist? | #2 | ||
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Posts: 254 01/06/06 02:57:20 Smarty Pants |
In other threads, I've realized that the word intrinsic has multiple meanings.
As one interpretation, some of my beliefs are intrinsic to my nature, such as the belief that it's wrong to torture babies. In that sense, other things I believe, such as the Pythagorean theorem, are not intrinsic. Another interpretation defines an intrinsic value as one that's a universal truth, apart from what any individual believes. With that interpretation, a mathematical concept like the Pythagorean theorem is an intrinsic truth, while the evilness of torturing babies may or may not be. |
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riverc0il |
Re: Does Intrinsic Value Exist? | #3 | ||
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Posts: 447 01/06/06 07:18:16 Witty&Wise |
Quote: this is the definition the author seems to be going with and is what i tried to base the poll on. |
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Jeremy1952 |
Re: Does Intrinsic Value Exist? | #4 | ||
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Posts: 907 01/08/06 03:33:09 Enlightened One |
It seems apparent to me that values are inextricably tied to point of view. I think right and wrong, moral and immoral are real: but human morality is only meaningful from a human point of view. From the point of view of the prairie chicken (which was hunted to extinction in the U.S.), anything which would have destroyed, limited, or crippled human beings would have been "good". In fact there are many perfectly valid points of view from which destruction of human beings is good. Since this is, to me, obviously true, it is equally apparent that values cannot be necessary truths, in the sense of the Pythagorean theorem.
If you make yourself really small, you can externalize virtually everything. Daniel Dennett, 1984 |
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Jade |
words of advice | #5 | ||
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Posts: 60 02/11/06 14:42:41 Intern |
While chatting up a cute boy in a bar, do NOT ask him if he believes in a set of intrinsic values of good and evil.
He will look at you quizically and excuse himself. *sigh* Stupid beer... made me forget that I'm not supposed to speak intelligently while in bars... Though... on another note... can we make a list? Cause.. I'm having some trouble. |
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MadArchitect |
Re: words of advice | #6 | ||
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Posts: 3169 02/13/06 21:48:34 Indisputable BookTalk Master |
A list of what?
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dagege |
Re: Does Intrinsic Value Exist? -- questions | #7 | ||
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Posts: 22 02/18/06 02:58:43 Totally Clueless |
Submitted for your discussion, my questions:
Must intrinisic values by definition be universal values? God or no god, how can humans function without (at least) individually intrinsic values? Without them, we'd be blind to the most obvious of our pursuits. RE: universal vs individual Is the question of instrinsic values derived from the degree to which our social experience shapes them; or, is the question of their exsistence a challenge to our socialization. If intrinsic values are prior to and regardless of socialization, can they be isolated as a purely sensory experience? If they are a product of socialization, can they be analyzed as psychological phenemona? |
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Dissident Heart |
Re: Does Intrinsic Value Exist? | #8 | ||
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Posts: 1868 02/18/06 13:02:23 Indisputable BookTalk Master |
Some thoughts.... ... .. .
A value gains/loses authority based upon its origin. This authority can be limited or universal. Submission to this authority is how we determine if an act, idea or relationship is valuable. An intrinsic value has its origin in something other than human imagination/ingenuity or social construction/tradition. Values that arise from human imagination/igenuity or social construction/tradition have a lesser scope of authority than intrinsic values. Human imagination/ingenuity and social construction/tradition are sometimes in conflict with each other, and sometimes mutually supportive. Intrinsic values may arise from a transcendent, supernatural source. Intrinsic values may arise from genetic physiological source. Transcendent or genetic sources carry greater authoritative scope than human imag/ingenuity social contruc/tradition sources. |
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dagege |
Re: Does Intrinsic Value Exist? | #9 | ||
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Posts: 22 02/18/06 15:59:49 Totally Clueless |
The problem that I see by postulating a value derived from a transcendent or supernatural source is that its evidence enters only via the senses and/or experience. As such, the religious experience and the mystic experience, it would seem, are not so much departures from, but refinements of the senses.
In turn, I am wondering about the process of assigning a value supernatural or transcendent authority. More generally, I am also wondering about how sensory (gen- physio) construction effects participation in the social dynamic. At the risk of reducing consciousness to a hard-wired biological system of meta-values, it would seem that increasing a chosen value's authority by invoking extra-sensory origins is a subversion. My argument does not intend to discount the existance of intrinsic values or god. The argument is meant to state (anarchistically, perhaps) that the intrinsic-ness of any value lies in the degree to which it is directed rather than in the degree to which it directs. I hope I wrote that right. |
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Meme Wars |
Re: Does Intrinsic Value Exist? | #10 | ||
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Posts: 101 02/19/06 12:11:23 Senior |
I agree with Jeremy.
Intrinsic Values are utter nonsense. What is good for the Mosquito is bad for Humans. What is good for humans is bad for mosquitos. Values are meaningless without a point of reference. As we become more enlightened, we begin to embrace multiple points of view dispite some understandable conflicts of interest between each position, but to extend to an infinite number of points of views, the idea of value, good & evil, completely evaporate into meaninglessness. Monty Vonn Meme Wars! 
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Chris OConnor |
Re: Does Intrinsic Value Exist? | #11 | ||
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Indisputable BookTalk Master
Posts: 9511 02/19/06 15:35:58 BookTalk Owner |
Well said!
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MadArchitect |
Re: Does Intrinsic Value Exist? | #12 | ||
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Posts: 3169 02/19/06 19:43:22 Indisputable BookTalk Master |
So is a consistent ethical system impossible?
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dagege |
Re: Does Intrinsic Value Exist? | #13 | ||
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Posts: 22 02/19/06 23:07:11 Totally Clueless |
I wouldn't think so. And I hope I'm not coming across as too brash, but I think that it's very problematic to conceive of prarie chickens and mosquitoes having values. I think it is an interesting question: needn't there be consciousness for values to exist? In anycase, I'm most concerned with the possibility that humans have intrinsic values. I believe it to be so. I also believe that religion and spirituality is a manifestation of those values rather than their source. While it is difficult to get past the "OK, so what are they?" pitfall, seeking out the answer to the possibility of the existence of intrinsic values is on a wholly different plane than determining how instrinsic values are actualized.
A good place for me to start is to postulate an idea of common ground that all conscious beings share both mentally and (as tenants on this dark earth) physically. Antithetical to the dog-eat-dog paradigm, I profess that human beings are driven to care for each other. Unfortunately, this drive is subject to many distractions. |
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Meme Wars |
Re: Does Intrinsic Value Exist? | #14 | ||
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Posts: 101 02/20/06 00:02:53 Senior |
dagege writes: it's very problematic to conceive of prarie chickens and mosquitoes having values.
Meme Wars: You're not the one determining their value. It is the prairie chicken and the mosquito who determine their own value, just as you value yourself; we are naturally species-centric. In this case, 'might makes right', and you are mightier then they. dagege: needn't there be consciousness for values to exist? Meme Wars: Define value and I'll answer the question. Definition #2: how much something is worth. I suppose only beasts with monetary systems are qualified to figure out values. Words like value are only useful in specific concrete day to day situations as glue is only meaningful if there are two things to bond together. Glorifying glue without reference to what it can stick to is silly and meaningless. We put too much power in words. Sometimes words turn into religions. They have moved beyond their functional usefulness when we set words apart from their down to earth dirty day to day applications. Lets stop glorifying and worshipping those spirit things called words (or memes)! Meme Wars! |
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misterpessimistic |
Re: Does Intrinsic Value Exist? | #15 | ||
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Indisputable BookTalk Master
Posts: 4113 03/06/06 17:58:07 Indisputable BookTalk Master |
There is no such thing as intrinsic value.
Name one thing, anybody, that you think has intrinsic value? I cannot. The thing of it is, is that one person's value is another person's absurdity. I guess that puts me with Monty and Jeremy. Mr. P. The one thing of which I am positive is that there is much of which to be negative - Mr. P.
The pain in hell has two sides. The kind you can touch with your hand; the kind you can feel in your heart...Scorsese's "Mean Streets" I came to kick ass and chew Bubble Gum...and I am all out of Bubble Gum - They Live, Roddy Piper |
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MadArchitect |
Re: Does Intrinsic Value Exist? | #16 | ||
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Posts: 3169 03/07/06 15:44:15 Indisputable BookTalk Master |
It also puts you against the author attempt to construct a naturalistic morality.
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misterpessimistic |
Re: Does Intrinsic Value Exist? | #17 | ||
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Indisputable BookTalk Master
Posts: 4113 03/08/06 10:27:38 Indisputable BookTalk Master |
So the authors attempt is the ONLY way to establish a naturalistic ethical system?
I think not. Mr. P. The one thing of which I am positive is that there is much of which to be negative - Mr. P.
The pain in hell has two sides. The kind you can touch with your hand; the kind you can feel in your heart...Scorsese's "Mean Streets" I came to kick ass and chew Bubble Gum...and I am all out of Bubble Gum - They Live, Roddy Piper |
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dagege |
Re: Does Intrinsic Value Exist? | #18 | ||
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Posts: 22 03/08/06 18:19:01 Totally Clueless |
I hate to play the contrarian, but I think it is patently obvious that intrinsic values exist. Perhaps an intrinsic value (singular) exists and for those unable to see the forest for the trees it appears wholly individualistic and relative.
That all entities (especially humans) take measures to attain a certain quality of existence makes the end product of this process an intrinsic value. |
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misterpessimistic |
Re: Does Intrinsic Value Exist? | #19 | ||
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Indisputable BookTalk Master
Posts: 4113 03/08/06 19:46:17 Indisputable BookTalk Master |
I still do not see the obviousness of intrinsic value...can you expand a bit?
Quote: Different cultures do not even agree on what "measures to take" to "attain a certain quality of existence" (whatever that means). Some cultures would say that the American 'measures' and 'quality of existence' are superficial and self-serving...certainly nothing intrinsically valuable in that position. The bottom line is that the only way something can have intrinsic value is for it to have something (or someone) who can assign it the property that the observer deems valuable. Without (insert any sufficiently intelligent being here) to debate all this, there would not even be such a thing as value in the first place...no? Mr. P. The one thing of which I am positive is that there is much of which to be negative - Mr. P.
The pain in hell has two sides. The kind you can touch with your hand; the kind you can feel in your heart...Scorsese's "Mean Streets" I came to kick ass and chew Bubble Gum...and I am all out of Bubble Gum - They Live, Roddy Piper |
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Chris OConnor |
Re: Does Intrinsic Value Exist? | #20 | ||
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Indisputable BookTalk Master
Posts: 9511 03/08/06 20:03:25 BookTalk Owner |
Nor do I.
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- Godless in America: Conversations With an Atheist - by George A. Ricker
- Interventions - by Noam Chomsky
- Religious Expression and the American Constitution - by Franklyn S. Haiman
- Deep Economy: The Wealth of Communities and the Durable Future - by Bill McKibben
- The God Delusion - by Richard Dawkins
- The Third Chimpanzee: The Evolution and Future of the Human Animal - by Jared Diamond
- The Woman in the Dunes - by Abe Kobo
- Evolution vs. Creationism: An Introduction - by Eugenie Scott
- The Omnivore's Dilemma: A Natural History of Four Meals - by Michael Pollan
- I, Claudius: From the Autobiography of Tiberius Claudius, Born 10 B.C., Murdered and Deified A.D. 54 - by Robert Graves
- Breaking the Spell: Religion as a Natural Phenomenon - by Daniel Dennett
- A Peace to End All Peace: The Fall of the Ottoman Empire and the Creation of the Modern Middle East - by David Fromkin
- The Time Traveler's Wife - by Audrey Niffenegger
- The End of Faith: Religion, Terror, and the Future of Reason - by Sam Harris
- Ender's Game - by Orson Scott Card
- The Curious Incident of the Dog in the Night-Time - by Mark Haddon
- Value & Virtue in a Godless Universe - by Erik J. Wielenberg
- The March: A Novel - by E.L. Doctorow
- The Ethical Brain - by Michael Gazzaniga
- Freethinkers: A History of American Secularism - by Susan Jacoby
- Collapse: How Societies Choose to Fail or Succeed - by Jared Diamond
- The Battle for God - by Karen Armstrong
- The Future of Life - by Edward O. Wilson
- What is Good? The Search for the Best Way to Live - by A.C. Grayling
- Civilization and It's Enemies: The Next Stage of History - by Lee Harris
- Pale Blue Dot: A Vision of the Human Future in Space - by Carl Sagan
- How We Believe: Science, Skepticism, and the Search for God - by Michael Shermer
- Looking For Spinoza: Joy, Sorrow, and the Feeling Brain - by Antonio Damasio
- Lies (And the Lying Liars Who Tell Them): A Fair and Balanced Look at the Right - by Al Franken
- The Red Queen: Sex and the Evolution of Human Nature - by Matt Ridley
- The Blank Slate: The Modern Denial of Human Nature - by Stephen Pinker
- Unweaving the Rainbow: Science, Delusion and the Appetite for Wonder - by Richard Dawkins
- Atheism: A Reader - edited by S. T. Joshi
- Global Brain: The Evolution of Mass Mind from the Big Bang to the 21st Century - by Howard Bloom
- The Lucifer Principle: A Scientific Expedition into the Forces of History - by Howard Bloom
- Guns, Germs and Steel: The Fates of Human Societies - by Jared Diamond
- Demon-Haunted World: Science As a Candle in the Dark - by Carl Sagan
- Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee: An Indian History of the American West - by Dee Alexander Brown
- Future Shock - by Alvin Toffler
