Curious Incident: Pages 1 - 44 - The Curious Incident of the Dog in the Night-Time - by Mark Haddon - Archived Book Discussions - www.BookTalk.org - Message Board

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Curious Incident: Pages 1 - 44

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Chris OConnor	Curious Incident: Pages 1 - 44		Lead	[-]
Indisputable BookTalk Master Posts: 9511 01/26/06 23:15:09 BookTalk Owner	Tags : None The Curious Incident of the Dog in the Night-Time (Pages 1 - 44)
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MadArchitect	Re: Curious Incident: Pages 1 - 44	#1	[url]	[-]
Posts: 3169 02/02/06 16:00:40 Indisputable BookTalk Master	Amusing opening. My favorite line so far is about Steve, who can't even fetch a stick. One thing that's throwing me a little off is the numbering of the chapters. The book starts with 2. Oookay. I haven't skimmed ahead much, but given what we know about the protagonist by the second (um, 3rd) chapter, maybe he's using the sequence of primes rather than using all the whole integers starting with 1. Then again, 1 is a prime, so why start with 2? Look at me, confused by a autistic, fictional character. Okay, so my first official task as discussion leader will be, to ask everyone who's reading how they think the novel would differ if it weren't narrated from the point of view of its main character. This is an on-going question -- feel free to dredge it back up again in later chapters.
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Chris OConnor	Re: Curious Incident: Pages 1 - 44	#2	[url]	[-]
Indisputable BookTalk Master Posts: 9511 02/02/06 16:22:54 BookTalk Owner	He is indeed using primes, but now that you mention it I don't understand why he didn't use #1. I was going to number the threads here i this forum by Chapters, but that was looking rather messy on paper. So I went with page numbers instead. Oh, and I know who killed Wellington.
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Chris OConnor	Re: Curious Incident: Pages 1 - 44	#3	[url]	[-]
Indisputable BookTalk Master Posts: 9511 02/02/06 16:32:16 BookTalk Owner	According to what I've read online the #1 is no longer considered a prime number. Read me *Quote:* The number 1 is a special case which is considered neither prime nor composite (Wells 1986, p. 31). Although the number 1 used to be considered a prime (Goldbach 1742; Lehmer 1909; Lehmer 1914; Hardy and Wright 1979, p. 11; Gardner 1984, pp. 86-87; Sloane and Plouffe 1995, p. 33; Hardy 1999, p. 46), it requires special treatment in so many definitions and applications involving primes greater than or equal to 2 that it is usually placed into a class of its own. A good reason not to call 1 a prime number is that if 1 were prime, then the statement of the fundamental theorem of arithmetic would have to be modified since "in exactly one way" would be false because any . In other words, unique factorization into a product of primes would fail if the primes included 1. A slightly less illuminating but mathematically correct reason is noted by Tietze (1965, p. 2), who states "Why is the number 1 made an exception? This is a problem that schoolboys often argue about, but since it is a question of definition, it is not arguable." As more simply noted by Derbyshire (2004, p. 33), "2 pays its way [as a prime] on balance; 1 doesn't." With 1 excluded, the smallest prime is therefore 2. However, since 2 is the only even prime (which, ironically, in some sense makes it the "oddest" prime), it is also somewhat special, and the set of all primes excluding 2 is therefore called the "odd primes." Note also that while 2 is considered a prime today, at one time it was not (Tietze 1965, p. 18; Tropfke 1921, p. 96). Chris
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MadArchitect	Re: Curious Incident: Pages 1 - 44	#4	[url]	[-]
Posts: 3169 02/02/06 17:03:52 Indisputable BookTalk Master	Hmm, interesting. Does that mean that there's a more complex but more correct definition of primes than the one I was taught in school? I seem to recall that the definition was "any number that is only divisible by itself and 1." The number one would fall into that category. Although, I guess mathematicians are free to make an exception of it if they please. Maybe they could just add, "and is not a square." That would exclude 1 nicely, and without bothering any of the other primes.
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misterpessimistic	Re: Curious Incident: Pages 1 - 44	#5	[url]	[-]
Indisputable BookTalk Master Posts: 4113 02/03/06 00:54:10 Indisputable BookTalk Master	The narrator explains on pages 11-12 how to derive prime numbers...but does not offer a reason why 1 is omitted. Maybe there is an explanation later on...unless Chris is right on the nose...but still...the narrative does not offer this or any other reason at this point. On page 12, I find it interesting how the narrator sums up his discussion of primes: *Quote:* Prime numbers are what is left when you have taken all the patterns away. I think they are like life. They are very logical but you could never work out the rules, even if you spent all your time thinking about them. Now...I do not know that I agree that primes are what is left after you 'take all the patterns' away. After all, the patter for determining primes was offered by the narrator just a few sentences before? I do not know...this just struck me. I will leave it to the more mathematical amongst us to probe deeper if they like. Mr. P. The one thing of which I am positive is that there is much of which to be negative - Mr. P. The pain in hell has two sides. The kind you can touch with your hand; the kind you can feel in your heart...Scorsese's "Mean Streets" I came to kick ass and chew Bubble Gum...and I am all out of Bubble Gum - They Live, Roddy Piper
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misterpessimistic	The Name game	#6	[url]	[-]
Indisputable BookTalk Master Posts: 4113 02/03/06 01:02:33 Indisputable BookTalk Master	Christopher John Francis Boone... Hmm...this name screams of discovery, revelation, unexplored territory... Does anyone else see what else these names could reveal about the narrator or story? I assumed the names were references to Columbus, St. John, St. Francis and Daniel Boone. Maybe I am off a bit...anyone else have any ideas? Mr. P. The one thing of which I am positive is that there is much of which to be negative - Mr. P. The pain in hell has two sides. The kind you can touch with your hand; the kind you can feel in your heart...Scorsese's "Mean Streets" I came to kick ass and chew Bubble Gum...and I am all out of Bubble Gum - They Live, Roddy Piper
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misterpessimistic	Re: Curious Incident: Pages 1 - 44	#7	[url]	[-]
Indisputable BookTalk Master Posts: 4113 02/03/06 01:05:16 Indisputable BookTalk Master	I found it a bit odd that the police would just take this child into prison like an adult offender. I mean, does not the town know that this child had this condition? It just seemed odd. Where was the father at the time of the incident? 7 minutes after midnight...and this person was left alone? Mr. P. The one thing of which I am positive is that there is much of which to be negative - Mr. P. The pain in hell has two sides. The kind you can touch with your hand; the kind you can feel in your heart...Scorsese's "Mean Streets" I came to kick ass and chew Bubble Gum...and I am all out of Bubble Gum - They Live, Roddy Piper
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Chris OConnor	Re: Curious Incident: Pages 1 - 44	#8	[url]	[-]
Indisputable BookTalk Master Posts: 9511 02/03/06 02:51:21 BookTalk Owner	What a fantastic read! I should be in bed getting rested for this weekend camping trip, but instead I was taking a bath finishing this book. I'm going to bed, but do plan to participate in this discussion. I think Christopher stayed in his house and avoided the outside world as much as possible. It wouldn't be difficult for the police to not even know about him or his condition. Then again this is a work of fiction and the real answer is that Mark Haddon decided that the police wouldn't have any prior knowledge of the boys autism.
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Jade	re:	#9	[url]	[-]
Posts: 60 02/03/06 16:22:56 Intern	I'm worried that my version may be using different page numbers... pg 44 is... almost to ch.73 (starts next page), yes? I'm sorry... what is up with this neighbourhood? The dog is on the front lawn, not in a nice safe gated area and... Mrs. Shears just didn't notice? think think If somebody stabbed my dog I think I would notice... Also - is it normal to have children wandering into your yard after midnight??
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MadArchitect	Re: re:	#10	[url]	[-]
Posts: 3169 02/06/06 19:37:59 Indisputable BookTalk Master	misterpessimistic: I found it a bit odd that the police would just take this child into prison like an adult offender. Well, Christopher is 15; he may very well look like an adult. And parts of Europe consider a person no longer a minor when they hit 16, so he may be right on the verge anyway. Where was the father at the time of the incident? 7 minutes after midnight...and this person was left alone? That will probably be revealed, although, for the moment, I think it's safe to assume that his father doesn't exactly coddle him. The way he argued over letting Christopher take the Math exams, it looks as though he's a little bitter at having been left to raise a mentally impaired child on his own. Jade: I'm worried that my version may be using different page numbers... pg 44 is... almost to ch.73 (starts next page), yes? There are definitely different editions floating around. Pg. 44, in the edition I'm reading, comes in the middle of a chapter. We may need to find a different organizational principle for the threads. Unfortunately, I think Chris is out of town, and I don't have the ezboard permissions to change it myself. The dog is on the front lawn, not in a nice safe gated area and... Mrs. Shears just didn't notice? Was it the front lawn? I was thinking it was a garden area in the back, but I may be mistaken. I'm trying to imagine a British neighborhood -- the map Haddon provides makes it look like those typical duplex style apartment houses that the British installed in droves during the Thatcherite era.
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Dissident Heart	Re: Curious Incident: Pages 1 - 44	#11	[url]	[-]
Posts: 1868 02/06/06 19:40:35 Indisputable BookTalk Master	MA: to ask everyone who's reading how they think the novel would differ if it weren't narrated from the point of view of its main character. What is the point of view of Christopher? He is viscerally repulsed by lying or saying, even imagining, things which are not true. He is guided by a inflexible moral compass that is certain about what is right and wrong. He is compassionate for those who suffer, but will strike out to protect himself. He is gripped by the peculiar ways in which words and numbers follow patterns, and what these patterns mean. He is perplexed by the ways that faces speak without using words. His descriptions of people and things are matter of fact, with any evaluation tied to his black/white moral universe, where his conclusions are absolutely obvious to himself. He thinks that others reason, feel and evaluate their worlds in the same way he does; he simply cannot imagine a world different from the one he sees, or a way of thinking beyond his own. His reasoning is largely a matter of putting things in proper order, following a logic that is crystal clear to him, even if others find it very odd. His character reminds me of Tom Hanks as Forrest Gump or Billy Bob Thornton as Karl Childers in Slingblade. Characters who are stricken with what seems to be an emotional/intellectual deficit, lacking the required intelligence to understand basic social cues, are seen as idiots or retarded, but as the story unfolds they portray a deep moral wisdom and personal courage. They may be idiots, per se, but they are passionate about love and justice. They are not hindred by a guilty conscience, nor do they seek status, reward, success or dominance: they simply tell the truth and care about others.
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MadArchitect	Re: Curious Incident: Pages 1 - 44	#12	[url]	[-]
Posts: 3169 02/06/06 20:25:15 Indisputable BookTalk Master	Dissident Heart: He thinks that others reason, feel and evaluate their worlds in the same way he does; he simply cannot imagine a world different from the one he sees, or a way of thinking beyond his own. Oh, I don't think he's that confident. It seems to me that other people are, to him, a supreme mystery, and the mystery of Wellington's death is momentous in large part because it leads him through all of these bizarre pathways made up of the private worlds of other people. When he encounters a point of view or a behavior that differs from what he's capable of, he tends to shut down or lash out. He can't imagine a world different from the one he sees, true, but he knows it exists.
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Dissident Heart	Re: Curious Incident: Pages 1 - 44	#13	[url]	[-]
Posts: 1868 02/06/06 21:49:50 Indisputable BookTalk Master	MA: I don't think he's that confident. This is an interesting characteristic, confidence, as it relates to Christopher. Having confidence suggests having some notion of attaining a degree of competency or expertise in a given field: it means trusting one's skills and being able to rely upon your abilities. I don't see Christopher exhibiting that kind of self-reflection. His action is more automatic, lacking the kind of performance anxiety that can be remedied with confidence; or, in other words, he doesn't require confidence because he acts with unwavering certainty. I'm interested in exploring how he can maintain this certainty, and it not be an act of confidence. MA: It seems to me that other people are, to him, a supreme mystery Not so supreme and not such a mystery that he isn't quick to connect them to proper roles (police officer is good; strangers are danger), or label them stupid (like all the kids in his school), or identify the reasons couples get divorced, etc. Likewise the "stroke of inspiration" p.42 that outlined his rationale for who the Prime Suspect would be seems to restrict human behavior into fairly demonstrable and neatly defined parameters. I think the mystery, to him, is why other people do not follow the orderly logic by which he structures his universe. Like, why people use words that don't make sense, or as he says "People do a lot of talking without using any words". Perhaps this mystery will open up into seeking what is actually going on in other minds; but up to now, it looks as though it is primarily a matter of seeing minds acting disorderly, contrary to his particular need for logic.
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Chris OConnor	Re: Curious Incident: Pages 1 - 44	#14	[url]	[-]
Indisputable BookTalk Master Posts: 9511 02/07/06 00:33:27 BookTalk Owner	Jade *Quote:* I'm sorry... what is up with this neighbourhood? The dog is on the front lawn, not in a nice safe gated area and... Mrs. Shears just didn't notice? think think If somebody stabbed my dog I think I would notice... Yes, this is pretty strange. A poodle shouldn't be out in the front yard by itself after midnight. Maybe she opened the door for the poodle to go out in the yard and leave doggie landmines. This would make sense. I'm up after midnight all the time, and if my dog scratched at the door I'd let him out too. Then again...I don't have a dog and if I did I would take him out on a leash. *Quote:* Also - is it normal to have children wandering into your yard after midnight?? The strange part is that Christophers father allowsd him to wander the streets at night, but it isn't strange at all that Christopher desires to wander the streets at night. At 15 I did my own share of midnight wandering. And on the second page Christopher explains why he enjoys his late night walks. *Quote:* ...when I'm still awake at 3 a.m. or 4 a.m in the morning and I can walk up and down the street and pretend that I am the only person in the whole world. Later in the book you learn more and more about this boys mind. He truly wishes he was the only person on the planet. People scare him and make him nervous. Late at night he can enjoy complete freedom from the distractions of other people. And he only wandered into her yard when he saw a pitchfork sticking out of her dog. I'd wander into her yard if I saw such a sight too. Mad *Quote:* We may need to find a different organizational principle for the threads. I spent quite a bit of time exploring the various ways of numbering the threads for this books discussion and think the current method is best. Using actual chapters would confuse everyone - even those of us that understand that the chapters are prime numbers. It simply looks and feels odd to progress from Chapter 211 to Chapter 223 and skip every number in between. Lets just stick with the current thread setup so that we can all focus on the actual discussion. These two months will be over before you know it.
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MadArchitect	Re: Curious Incident: Pages 1 - 44	#15	[url]	[-]
Posts: 3169 02/07/06 14:17:44 Indisputable BookTalk Master	Dissident Heart: I don't see Christopher exhibiting that kind of self-reflection. His action is more automatic, lacking the kind of performance anxiety that can be remedied with confidence; or, in other words, he doesn't require confidence because he acts with unwavering certainty. I don't think that's the case at all. He's not an automaton. He wants certainty in the world around him, but I wouldn't say that he's always certain of his actions. There's his conversation with Mrs. Alexander in the park, for instance. And his discussion about choices, and how having favorites makes choosing easier. He patterns his life as much as possible because it's the only way he can keep up with the pace of the non-autistic world, but I don't think we should mistake that for absolute certainty. I think the mystery, to him, is why other people do not follow the orderly logic by which he structures his universe. He also says that life has no definite pattern, which is why he likes prime numbers. I think he recognizes that people can generally be placed in consistent categories, but there's plenty in the book to suggest that he knows this only holds true on average. Chris OConnor: Then again...I don't have a dog and if I did I would take him out on a leash. Christopher has said that it's a small town, and outside dogs tend to be more common in smaller neighborhoods. Plus, I get the feeling that we're not dealing with terribly conscientious people here. Lets just stick with the current thread setup so that we can all focus on the actual discussion. These two months will be over before you know it. The only thing I'm really worried about re: thread numbering, is that people with different editions might wander into the "wrong" thread and give spoiler information or confuse things by talking about sections of the book that others in that thread haven't gotten to yet. That wasn't a problem with the Gazzaniga or Weilenberg books because they're all in their first printings at the moment.
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Jade	re	#16	[url]	[-]
Posts: 60 02/08/06 11:44:36 Intern	Perhaps it's because I'm a girl... and I was raised in South Africa... so weirdness for the wandering. and.. umm.. Chris? If you ever see a pitchfork sticking out of a dog.. PLEASE don't wander over there. It's one of those situations that screams 'run away!'
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ginof	Re: Curious Incident: Pages 1 - 44	#17	[url]	[-]
Posts: 207 02/11/06 02:25:22 Ph.D.	OK, I LOVE this book! What a blast! It's exciting, it's fresh, it's a funky story! Chris, I've picked up on who kills Wellington, too. And, I've read far enough to know I'm correct. The book took me a bit to figure out. But, particularly in this early part, I've really enjoyed the way the author has 'played' with the literary device he has created for himself. It was very interesting and in many ways humorous to see what was going on and how he handled it. Now, don't get me wrong. A murder investigation is not a funny thing. However, it is kind of cool the way he's handled it. Trying different things. I wonder what the early drafts of this book looked like: You know- what did this guy do that he pulled out? What did he think didn't work? Once again, I'm really enjoying this fresh point of view.
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tarav	Re: Curious Incident: Pages 1 - 44	#18	[url]	[-]
Posts: 1052 02/13/06 17:24:47 Moderator	Between Gino's praises and the other posts on this book, I am wishing I had been reading along. I know it's not too late, but I am reading two other books right now. I still might read this book eventually. It really sounds like a book I'd enjoy.
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MadArchitect	Re: Curious Incident: Pages 1 - 44	#19	[url]	[-]
Posts: 3169 02/13/06 21:47:13 Indisputable BookTalk Master	It's a quick read, Tara. You could pretty easily fit it into a weekend, I think.
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misterpessimistic	Re: Curious Incident: Pages 1 - 44	#20	[url]	[-]
Indisputable BookTalk Master Posts: 4113 02/14/06 10:55:01 Indisputable BookTalk Master	Yes. I finished it in between two other books in about 4 days. I was not entirely impressed with it. Mr. P. The one thing of which I am positive is that there is much of which to be negative - Mr. P. The pain in hell has two sides. The kind you can touch with your hand; the kind you can feel in your heart...Scorsese's "Mean Streets" I came to kick ass and chew Bubble Gum...and I am all out of Bubble Gum - They Live, Roddy Piper
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