Part 1 & Prologue: Just Another Species of Big Mammal
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Chris OConnor |
Part 1 & Prologue: Just Another Species of Big Mammal |
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Indisputable BookTalk Master
Posts: 9504 12/28/06 11:42:55 BookTalk Owner | ||||
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minority mandate |
Re: Part 1 & Prologue: Just Another Species of Big Mamma | #1 | ||
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Posts: 53 01/01/07 18:48:26 Contemplative |
In the Prologue, Diamond gives several ways in which humans differ from other apes (pg 7). What do you think are the most important differences? Has he left anything out that you would include?
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Chris OConnor |
Re: Part 1 & Prologue: Just Another Species of Big Mamma | #2 | ||
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Indisputable BookTalk Master
Posts: 9504 01/01/07 19:44:00 BookTalk Owner |
I'm wondering how significant the statistics are in the Prologue. So we're very similar genetically to the other primates, but what is the difference between lets say a human and a dog? ...or a human and a frog?
I imagine he gets to that later in the book, but right now, without anything to compare these stats to I am not appreciating their significance. I'm excited about this book though and hope we have plenty of participation. |
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minority mandate |
significance | #3 | ||
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Posts: 53 01/02/07 22:39:03 Contemplative |
While in the prologue Diamond states that the difference between both types of chimps and man is only 1.6%, a little further on (pgs 23 - 24) he compares the differences between monkeys and chimps (7.3%) and orangatans and chimps (3.6%) and between two species of very similar gibbons (2.2%). But like you I would like to know what the difference is between man and say, a mouse.
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misterpessimistic |
Re: significance | #4 | ||
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Indisputable BookTalk Master
Posts: 4113 01/02/07 23:25:44 Indisputable BookTalk Master |
I may have a book that addresses this...I will see if I can find it. But did anyone do a search yet?
Mr. P. Mr. P's place. I warned you!!!
Mr. P's Bookshelf. I'm not saying it's usual for people to do those things but I(with the permission of God) have raised a dog from the dead and healed many people from all sorts of ailments. - Asana The one thing of which I am positive is that there is much of which to be negative - Mr. P. The pain in hell has two sides. The kind you can touch with your hand; the kind you can feel in your heart...Scorsese's "Mean Streets" I came to kick ass and chew Bubble Gum...and I am all out of Bubble Gum - They Live, Roddy Piper |
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MadArchitect |
Re: significance | #5 | ||
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Posts: 3169 01/03/07 16:49:39 Indisputable BookTalk Master |
The best way I've found to check this information is to run a search on comparative genomics.
This from the U.S. National Human Genome Research Center fact sheet... www.genome.gov/11509542 Has the field of comparative genomics yielded any results? The rapidly emerging field of comparative genomics has already yielded dramatic results. For example, a March 2000 study comparing the fruit fly genome with the human genome discovered that about 60 percent of genes are conserved between fly and human. Or, to put it simply, the two organisms appear to share a core set of genes. Researchers have found that two-thirds of human genes known to be involved in cancer have counterparts in the fruit fly. Even more surprisingly, when scientists inserted a human gene associated with early-onset Parkinson's disease into fruit flies, they displayed symptoms similar to those seen in humans with the disorder, raising the possibility the tiny insects could serve as a new model for testing therapies aimed at Parkinson's. More recently, a comparative genomic analysis of six species of yeast prompted scientists to significantly revise their initial catalog of yeast genes and to predict a new set of functional elements thought to play a role in regulating genome activity. And from genomics.energy.gov... www.ornl.gov/sci/techreso...pgen.shtml The often-quoted statement that we share over 98% of our genes with apes (chimpanzees, gorillas, and orangutans) actually should be put another way. That is, there is more than 95% to 98% similarity between related genes in humans and apes in general. (Just as in the mouse, quite a few genes probably are not common to humans and apes, and these may influence uniquely human or ape traits.) Similarities between mouse and human genes range from about 70% to 90%, with an average of 85% similarity but a lot of variation from gene to gene (e.g., some mouse and human gene products are almost identical, while others are nearly unrecognizable as close relatives). Some nucleotide changes are "neutral" and do not yield a significantly altered protein. Others, but probably only a relatively small percentage, would introduce changes that could substantially alter what the protein does. |
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misterpessimistic |
Re: significance | #6 | ||
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Indisputable BookTalk Master
Posts: 4113 01/03/07 17:10:26 Indisputable BookTalk Master |
Good...because I cound not find this info in my book!
Mr. P. Mr. P's place. I warned you!!!
Mr. P's Bookshelf. I'm not saying it's usual for people to do those things but I(with the permission of God) have raised a dog from the dead and healed many people from all sorts of ailments. - Asana The one thing of which I am positive is that there is much of which to be negative - Mr. P. The pain in hell has two sides. The kind you can touch with your hand; the kind you can feel in your heart...Scorsese's "Mean Streets" I came to kick ass and chew Bubble Gum...and I am all out of Bubble Gum - They Live, Roddy Piper |
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minority mandate |
difference | #7 | ||
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Posts: 53 01/03/07 23:52:48 Contemplative |
I have read a similar comparison between man and mouse, but it makes little sense. If there is a graduation between monkeys, chimps, and man, as Diamond writes, then there should be some greater difference between mice and men. The 85% average would mean that there is virtually no difference between monkeys and mice compared to men!
I suspect that the more traits that are shared, the closer the DNA is likely to be. As mammals we share many more traits with apes that with mice. If the 85% similarity with mice were true, then it would mean that talking about DNA differences between any two species has no meaning. Diamond gives several examples of like species having similar DNA. Also, an article in Scientific American holds that there is less DNA difference between men and chimps than there is between dogs and foxes. |
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MadArchitect |
Re: difference | #8 | ||
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Posts: 3169 01/04/07 16:03:48 Indisputable BookTalk Master |
minority mandate: I have read a similar comparison between man and mouse, but it makes little sense. If there is a graduation between monkeys, chimps, and man, as Diamond writes, then there should be some greater difference between mice and men. The 85% average would mean that there is virtually no difference between monkeys and mice compared to men!
Obviously, I'm no expert on comparative genomics, but given my limited understanding of the field, I'd say that there are two explanations. One is that a substantial portion of our DNA is probably devoted to very basic traits that are shared with just about all mammals, and laterally, by just about all known, complex life forms. So, yeah, it probably looks as though there's a huge amount of difference between a mouse and a man, but when you start adding up the things that they have in common -- skin, hearts, basic mammalian bone structure, heterosexual reproductive systems -- those are very complex elements and the very fact that they show up in both organisms probably accounts for a very large portion of their traits. Things like relative size and differences in shape may be much easier to code on a strand of DNA, which would explain why what we regard as major differences seem to make up only a very small percentage of the differences between the two species' DNA. In some part, that's a matter of perception. Do mice really have all that much in common with humans? It may seem like they don't, at least until you compare a human with a yeast. The other response is that, based on the articles I've linked to (specifically the second quote I provided), it looks as though the normative practice in comparative genomics has been to compare the DNA of shared genes -- eg. only comparing the genes that appear in both mice and humans, like the gene for, say, eyes -- and not making comparisons between the whole strand which would involve comparing genes that aren't shared by both -- say, for instance, genes for language acquisition. If that's the case, then it's easy to get a false impression of what's entailed by the posited similarities. What Diamond would actually be saying (if the text I quoted is applicable to The Third Chimpanzee) is that, for the traits we have in common, the genes of a human are more congruous to that of a human than to that of a mouse. In other words, the eye genes of a human are more similar to that of a chimp than that of a mouse -- which doesn't really imply much about how similar either the mouse or chimp genome is to that of the human, since humans may have genes that neither the mouse nor chimp have, and which are not being included in the comparison. Does that seem about right, based on everyone else's reading of the quoted text? Does anyone have any more information that might illuminate the subject? |
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misterpessimistic |
Re: difference | #9 | ||
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Indisputable BookTalk Master
Posts: 4113 01/04/07 17:07:03 Indisputable BookTalk Master |
Speaking to the point of mice as compared to humans...there are reasons that mice are used so much in research!!
I believe the immune system in mice is very compatible with humans. I am saying this based on some nugget of info that is in my head and I cannot point to a source right now. But I do know that mice are good subjects for testing because of similarities. Mr. P. Mr. P's place. I warned you!!!
Mr. P's Bookshelf. I'm not saying it's usual for people to do those things but I(with the permission of God) have raised a dog from the dead and healed many people from all sorts of ailments. - Asana The one thing of which I am positive is that there is much of which to be negative - Mr. P. The pain in hell has two sides. The kind you can touch with your hand; the kind you can feel in your heart...Scorsese's "Mean Streets" I came to kick ass and chew Bubble Gum...and I am all out of Bubble Gum - They Live, Roddy Piper |
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MadArchitect |
Re: difference | #10 | ||
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Posts: 3169 01/04/07 17:28:41 Indisputable BookTalk Master |
Along those lines (though not exactly pertinent), Michael Pollan mentioned that rats are useful in laboratory testing precisely because they're omnivorous, and thus have a lot of the same neurological and gastrointestinal dispositions as humans.
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misterpessimistic |
Re: difference | #11 | ||
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Indisputable BookTalk Master
Posts: 4113 01/04/07 19:44:16 Indisputable BookTalk Master |
I recall that. I found it an interesting point as well!
I picked up Pollan's "Botany of Desire", have you read that one? Mr. P. Mr. P's place. I warned you!!!
Mr. P's Bookshelf. I'm not saying it's usual for people to do those things but I(with the permission of God) have raised a dog from the dead and healed many people from all sorts of ailments. - Asana The one thing of which I am positive is that there is much of which to be negative - Mr. P. The pain in hell has two sides. The kind you can touch with your hand; the kind you can feel in your heart...Scorsese's "Mean Streets" I came to kick ass and chew Bubble Gum...and I am all out of Bubble Gum - They Live, Roddy Piper |
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minority mandate |
differences | #12 | ||
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Posts: 53 01/04/07 23:33:15 Contemplative |
I suspect that, without a couple courses in genetics, that the system will be difficult for me to fathom. For the time being I'm willing to go with Diamond's enthusiasm for the closeness of chimp/man DNA as being significant. Interestingly even he thinks that the closeness alone is not overwhelmingly significant. He seems to say that the major difference between us and chimps is the mutation occuring about 40,000 years ago that provided man with the capacity for language. He puts heavy emphasis on this singular trait, which in itself would not require a significant change in DNA.
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minority mandate |
about orangatans | #13 | ||
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Posts: 53 01/05/07 23:45:46 Contemplative |
New York Times January 6, 2007 Op-Ed Contributor The Vanishing Man of the Forest By BIRUTE MARY GALDIKAS ONCE again, I am driving, under the blazing equatorial sun, down an uncomfortable, rutty relic of a road into the interior of central Borneo. With me are two uniformed police men, one armed with a machine gun. The landscape is bleak, no trees, no shade as far as the eye can see. Our mission is to confiscate orangutan orphans whose mothers have been killed as a result of the sweeping forest clearance taking place throughout Borneo. Many years ago, Louis Leakey, the great paleo-anthropologist whose work at Olduvai Gorge and other sites in East Africa revolutionized our knowledge of human origins, encouraged me to study wild orangutans - just as he had encouraged Jane Goodall to study chimpanzees and Dian Fossey to study gorillas. Later, he laughingly called us the "trimates," or the three primates. Orangutans are not as well known as chimpanzees and gorillas. But like their African cousins, orangutans are great apes, our closest living relatives in the animal kingdom, and the most intelligent animals, with the exception of humans, to have evolved on land. Orangutans are reclusive, semi-solitary, quiet, highly arboreal and red, facts that come as a surprise to some people. Their name is derived from the Malay words "orang hutan," which literally mean "person of the forest." And it is the orangutan's profound connection to the forest that is driving it to extinction. Without forests, orangutans cannot survive. They spend more than 95 percent of their time in the trees, which, along with vines and termites, provide more than 99 percent of their food. Two forests form their only habitat, and they are the tropical rain forests of Borneo and Sumatra. Sumatra is exclusively Indonesian, as is the two thirds of the island of Borneo known as Kalimantan. That places 80 to 90 percent of the orangutan population, which numbers only 40,000 to 50,000, in Indonesia, with the remainder in Malaysian Borneo. What happens in Indonesia, particularly Kalimantan, will determine the orangutan's future. When I first arrived in Central Kalimantan in 1971, orangutans were already endangered because of poaching (for the pet trade and for the cooking pot) and deforestation (by loggers and by villagers making way for gardens and rice fields). But it was all relatively small-time. The forests of Kalimantan were vast - Indonesia's are the second largest tropical rain forests in the world, after Brazil's - and forest conversion rates small. People still used axes and saws to cut down trees and traveled by dugout canoes or small boats with inboard engines. I went straight to work, beginning a wild orangutan study that continues to this day, and establishing an orangutan rehabilitation program, the first in Kalimantan, which has returned more than 300 ex-captive orangutans to the wild. But the wild is increasingly difficult to find. In the late 1980s, as it entered the global economy, Indonesia decided to become a major producer and exporter of palm oil, pulp and paper. Before this, the government had endorsed selective logging. Now vast areas of forest were slated for conversion to plantations to grow trees for palm oil and paper production. Monster-sized bulldozers, replacing the chain saws of the early logging boom, tore up the forest, clear-cutting as many as 250,000 acres at once for palm oil plantations. At the same time, the price of wood, particularly the valuable hardwoods that grow in Indonesia's rain forests and fetch a high price on the black market, increased. Illegal logging became rampant, even in national parks and reserves. While illegal logging degrades the forest, plantations absolutely destroy it. And the destruction is not only immediate, but also long-term. Forest-clearing leaves huge amounts of dry branches and other wood litter on forest floors; a small spark can ignite enormous forest fires, particularly in times of drought. During the 1997 El Nio drought, approximately 25 million acres, an area about half the size of Oklahoma, burned in Indonesia. Thousands of orangutans died. Indonesia has achieved its goal of becoming one of the two largest palm-oil producers and exporters in the world. But at what cost? At least half of the world's wild orangutans have disappeared in the last 20 years; biologically viable populations of orangutans have been radically reduced in size and number; and 80 percent of the orangutan habitat has either been depopulated or totally destroyed. The trend shows no sign of abating: government maps of future planned land use show more of the same, on an increasing scale. We're back in the jeep. The police view the trip inland as a success. They confiscated five orangutans and one woman volunteered her crab-eating macaque, an unprotected species. Two of the orangutan owners, both women, shed tears, but we invited them to visit their "pets" at the Orangutan Foundation International's Care Center and Quarantine, where they will be rehabilitated and eventually released to the wild. I am pleased to think that five more orphan orangutans will once again feel the branches and leaves under their feet as they swing through the trees. Yet I am somewhat melancholy. The fragile forests that make orangutan life possible are fast disappearing. Where, I wonder, are the billionaire philanthropists and the international policies that will prevent orangutans - and all great apes - from going extinct? Indonesia is a vast, densely populated country where millions live in or near poverty. The temptation to exploit natural resources to feed people today, never mind tomorrow, and to expand the economy, is great. And the plantations are but one example. Surface-mining of gold in the alluvial fans of white sand has been practiced for two decades, leaving virtual moonscapes near the National Park where I work. Now zircon mining has entrenched itself all over Central Kalimantan, with each zircon mine obliterating 1,000 acres of rain forest. Two years ago nobody, myself included, even knew what zircon was. The international community must recognize that it has some responsibility for what happens to the great rain forests of Indonesian Borneo. Foreign investment in local development programs needs to be expanded. Village level projects, like the one financed by the United States Agency for International Development and run by Boston-based World Education near where I work, have empowered farmers, strengthened village economies and employed local people, giving them a stake in preserving the forest. We need more of these programs. Indonesia could also impose a special tax on companies that profit from rain forest destruction, with the revenues dedicated to forest and orangutan conservation. Proper labeling of palm oil content could allow a consumer boycott of soap, crackers, cookies and other products that contain it. Finally, Indonesia needs to be more vigorous in enforcing the excellent laws it already has to protect its forests. When I arrived in 1971, Borneo was almost a Garden of Eden, the most remote place on earth. Now it has been drawn into the global economy, one government decision, one business plan at a time. But the destruction of Borneo's forests and the extinction of the orangutans are not inevitable. It is possible to protect our ancient heritage and closest of kin - one orangutan, one national park, one piece of irreplaceable forest at a time. We only need to decide to do it. Birute Mary Galdikas is president and co-founder of Orangutan Foundation International in Los Angeles and a professor at Simon Fraser University in British Columbia. Copyright 2007 The New York Times Company |
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Loricat |
Re: about orangatans | #14 | ||
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Posts: 600 01/07/07 13:36:23 OMG I'm Awesome! |
Thanks, guys! I had a lot of the same questions reading this chapter, and I appreciate the 'work' (is it work, really?) that you've done here.
Just some points that jumped out at me: In the Prologue, I like how Diamond brings up (on page 3) the much-discussed, almost to the point of cliche, realities that with nuclear weapons and our doubling population, we have two ways of destroying the Earth. These are ideas that must be kept current... Also, I appreciate the promise of a line like: "What are those animal precursors of art and language, of genocide and drug abuse?" (also pg3) Chapter 1 awed me at the overall complexity of the scientists' tasks. How much work went into just the vulture question? Quote: But the idea of the chimp's closest relative being not the gorilla, but us, was just wonderfully mind-boggling. Not intellectual musings, I know, but there you go! "All beings are the owners of their deeds, the heirs to their deeds."
Loricat's Book Nook Celebrating the Absurd |
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MadArchitect |
Re: about orangatans | #15 | ||
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Posts: 3169 01/08/07 21:14:57 Indisputable BookTalk Master |
misterpessimistic: I picked up Pollan's "Botany of Desire", have you read that one?
No; "The Omnivore's Dilemma" was my first brush with Pollan. I enjoyed it, but it will probably be at least a few months before I pick up another Pollan book -- in part, because I've giving this one time to digest (yes, a pun), and in part, because that's just the way I read. Even when I read successive books in a series -- like, say, "Lord of the Rings", or James Chandler's Philip Marlowe novels -- I usually put one or two different books between successive parts of the series. I find that helps me keep them straight. Let me know what you think of it, though. "Botany" is probably the next Pollan book I'll pick up. |
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tarav |
Re: about orangatans | #16 | ||
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Posts: 1052 01/11/07 18:08:06 Moderator |
There is also the matter of junk DNA to complicate things. Shared junk DNA would indicate a seeming similarity, but really nothing the same would be expressed. Junk DNA that is not shared would seem to indicate differences that just wouldn't be there. I agree that the fact that chimps are more closely related to humans than they are to any other ape brings things into focus. I have read somewhere that the bonobos are even more closely related to us. I'd love to read a book about them at BookTalk soon.
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minority mandate |
bonobos | #17 | ||
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Posts: 53 01/11/07 23:23:55 Contemplative |
Bonobos are also called Pigmy Chimps, and they do seem closer to us than the regular chimp. The major difference is that they settle their differences with sex instead of violence. Oh, to be a chimp.
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tarav |
Re: bonobos | #18 | ||
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Posts: 1052 01/15/07 17:46:24 Moderator |
Oh, to be a bonobo!
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Loricat |
Re: Grandparenting | #19 | ||
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Posts: 600 01/17/07 02:55:03 OMG I'm Awesome! |
The idea that increased age alone had a huge impact on the development modern humans was eye-opening to me. Not that I'd never heard of the concept before, but that it was just suddenly so clear. Old age, grandparents, to hold pre-learned knowledge, to be able to pass it on, thus adding to the community's skills, allowing the community to innovate and expand instead of having to figure everything out from scratch...to free up time to begin creating 'useless' objects for ornament, to communicate in abstracts of esthetics, beliefs, and time.
I also appreciated Diamond's illustration of the lack of innovation. "Yes," I said to myself, "the Neanderthals lacked innovation." But did I really understand it, until that example he gives on pg. 50: Quote: Wow. Telling example that puts it all into perspective for me. "All beings are the owners of their deeds, the heirs to their deeds."
Loricat's Book Nook Celebrating the Absurd |
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misterpessimistic |
Re: Grandparenting | #20 | ||
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Indisputable BookTalk Master
Posts: 4113 01/27/07 11:32:09 Indisputable BookTalk Master |
Pg 39: The mystique of Man the Hunter is now so rooted in us tha it's hard to abandon our belief in its long-standing importance. Today, shooting a big animal is regarded as an ultimate expression of macho masculinity. Trapped in this mystique, male anthropologists like to stress the key role of big-game hunting in human evolution.
So is man the big hunter we have been told he is? Diamond goes on to deconstruct this myth, through his story of the New Guinean hunters big stories, but small results, in an amusing but informative way. Pg 40: ...you would think that they eat fresh kangaroo for dinner every night...[but most] admit that they have bagged only a few kangaroos in their whole lives. I have seen the hunter myth deconstucted before, and have also seen the converse - that it is the gathering and then agriculture that played a bigger role in shpaing our civilization, giving us the ability, in the form of more free time, to form specialized occupations and division of labor. Loricat: Regarding the Neanderthal lack of innovation, can it be, as Diamond suggests (pg 44), due to their short lifespan, or was it lack of innovation that did not help to increase their life-span? Diamond also goes on to say that "Grandparenting, and what we consider to be old age, must also have been rare among Neaderthals. If we lacked writing [a unique innovation in itself I think] and [only lived to] forty-five, just think how the ability of our society to accumulate and transmit information would suffer". And why did Neanderthals not live longer lives I wonder, as Diamond states (Pg 44) that they also took care of their injured, may have buried their dead (this is debated as Diamond states - I have read another book, originally titled "The Moneky Puzzle" and later re-issued as "The FIRST Chimpanzee" that give support for the idea of Neanderthal burial, whereas Diamond seems to take the middle ground) and had controled useage of fire. These traits show a sort of innovation in civilized behavior, if not in tool construction. Does it come down to tool useage and the efficiency of that trait to gather, hunt and process food that was the bigger advantage to survival than a communal and caring social structure? I dont know...but it seems that Diamond is suggesting this. **I gotta post this now because time is running out (at a library today)...I will edit in more thoughts and conclude this...so forgive any inconsistancy.** Mr. P. I'm not saying it's usual for people to do those things but I(with the permission of God) have raised a dog from the dead and healed many people from all sorts of ailments. - Asana Boditharta (former booktalk troll) The one thing of which I am positive is that there is much of which to be negative - Mr. P. What is all this shit about Angels? Have you heard this? 3 out of 4 people believe in Angels. Are you F****** STUPID? Has everybody lost their mind? - George Carlin I came to kick ass and chew Bubble Gum...and I am all out of Bubble Gum - They Live, Roddy Piper |
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