Ch. 7 - THE 'GOOD' BOOK AND THE CHANGING MORAL ZEITGEIST - The God Delusion - by Richard Dawkins - Archived Book Discussions - www.BookTalk.org - Message Board

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Ch. 7 - THE 'GOOD' BOOK AND THE CHANGING MORAL ZEITGEIST

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Chris OConnor	Ch. 7 - THE 'GOOD' BOOK AND THE CHANGING MORAL ZEITGEIST		Lead	[-]
Indisputable BookTalk Master Posts: 9511 12/24/06 21:23:39 BookTalk Owner	Tags : None Please discuss Chapter 7: THE 'GOOD' BOOK AND THE CHANGING MORAL ZEITGEIST within this thread.
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FiskeMiles	Re: Ch. 7 - THE 'GOOD' BOOK AND THE CHANGING MORAL ZEITGEIST	#1	[url]	[-]
Posts: 167 12/30/06 13:05:45 Masters	Having completed the first section of chapter 7, in which Dawkins treats the Old Testament, I have to say it exhibits the same lack of concern for balanced assessment exhibited in other passages throughout this book. It consists primarily of a derisive, mocking rant concerning the immoralities frequently displayed by Old Testament figures and is directed at fundamentalist Christians who Dawkins apparently believes are to be found lurking behind every bush (burning or not) on the American continent. He even goes so far as to suggest that Pat Robertson is "typical of those who today hold power and influence in the United States." His note 90 on page 237 references two books: The Unauthorized Version by Robin Lane Fox and The Secular Bible by Jacques Berlinerblau. He uses these references to support a point that the Bible is "a chaotically cobbled-together anthology of disjointed documents, composed, revised, translated, distorted and 'improved' by hundreds of anonymous authors, editors and copyists, unknown to us and mostly unknown to each other, spanning nine centuries." The reference is somewhat less than effective because it doesn't list specific passages in either book, which taken together comprise more than 675 pages. (How do we spell slapdash?) Dawkins's mention of these two books is particularly ironic to those who have any familiarity with them. Both are written by professed non-believers who demonstrate a reverence for and nuanced understanding of the Bible conspicuously lacking in the contemptuous and dismissive treatment meted out in The God Delusion. Berlinerblau's The Secular Bible is a book-length lamentation for the lack of secular Biblical scholarship combined with an argument that atheists, agnostics, and religious believers can all benefit from a detailed and sophisticated understanding of its contents. Robin Lane Fox describes himself as someone who "believes in the Bible but not in God." Compare the following passage from his book with Dawkins's treatment of the same topic. *Quote:* (p.400 ff.)In the Bible we recognize a human awareness in what scores of anonymous authors have written (including their human ideas of a god). This level of recognition is not at all the same as reverence for the Bible as a handbook for life, a role for which its detail is not well suited. The Gospels are not often specific on detailed points of conduct, and as a handbook they would be very patchy indeed. Those who want such details have to look back to the Hebrew books of law, but here, too, they face problems. If they are Christians, it is not obvious why details in these old books should continue to have such authority for them. Whether Christians or non-Christians, they have to pick and choose between the books' details or else appeal to broad principles in order to bend the texts to circumstances which they never envisaged, popular capitalism, perhaps, or even feminism. It is not only that the many different texts in scripture give conflicting points of view on anything from an after-life to polygamy or the value of riches. One and the same book of law can contain texts on charity for the poor, sanctions for the death penalty, public stoning, slavery or outright genocide (Deuteronomy 7:1 ff.; 20:16-18 ) . Many of these commands are no longer any sort of guide to decent living: how, then, can we pick out bits which are still tolerable to our moral sense and claim that they have an external authority because they are biblical, while denying that other biblical bits which stand beside them are to be taken as authoritative? ...When we recognize 'how it would have been', we are not, therefore, reading 'how it must be' for us now, as for people then: we can recognize something without approving it. Recognition is not a name for self-centred readings, tuned only to the comfortable views with which we begin. We set out with beliefs, but we can all imagine others which are different: we can also recognize what is not part of our own personalities or something which is, but is not what we often admit. Fiske
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Thinker102	Re: Ch. 7 - THE 'GOOD' BOOK AND THE CHANGING MORAL ZEITGEIST	#2	[url]	[-]
Posts: 16 01/02/07 05:48:07 I can vote now! Yeah!	*Quote:* the Bible is "a chaotically cobbled-together anthology of disjointed documents, composed, revised, translated, distorted and 'improved' by hundreds of anonymous authors, editors and copyists, unknown to us and mostly unknown to each other, spanning nine centuries." Richard Elliot Friedman, in his `Who Wrote the Bible?' does a good job of expressing this view, commonly called (for the OT) the `documentary hypothosis'. That view claims four primary authors for a substantial part of the OT plus two `redactors'. Friedman gave tenative identification to one of the authors (Jeremiah) and one of the redactors (Ezra). As far as the NT goes, the author of virtually every one of those works save Paul (and then only some of the time) is unknown, usually the work of later tradition.
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FiskeMiles	Re: Ch. 7 - THE 'GOOD' BOOK AND THE CHANGING MORAL ZEITGEIST	#3	[url]	[-]
Posts: 167 01/02/07 07:04:47 Masters	Dear Thinker: Thanks for joining the discussion and adding this information. Are you reading The God Delusion? Fiske
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Thinker102	Re: Ch. 7 - THE 'GOOD' BOOK AND THE CHANGING MORAL ZEITGEIST	#4	[url]	[-]
Posts: 16 01/03/07 03:32:43 I can vote now! Yeah!	*Quote:* Are you reading The God Delusion? Only in a casual sense. I've picked it up at the library a few times and read through this or that part of it. It reminds me of some of the debates in the `General Apologetics' portion of the `Christian Forums' site. Every one of the theist arguments presented in Dawkins book, and his counter arguments, has appeared at some point there (and quite a few others).
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FiskeMiles	Re: Ch. 7 - THE 'GOOD' BOOK AND THE CHANGING MORAL ZEITGEIST	#5	[url]	[-]
Posts: 167 01/03/07 10:31:26 Masters	Thinker: Yes, arguments about the existence of God are philosophical in nature which doesn't stop a lot of people on either side of the issue from insisting on ultimate truth when they have no real proof to offer. One of the reasons I am not too happy about describing belief in God as a delusion. But, I'll be adding a topic on the subject shortly. I wish you would check the book out from the library again and participate in our discussion. We can all benefit from a diversity of opinion, thought, and idea. Fiske
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Saint Gasoline	Re: Ch. 7 - THE 'GOOD' BOOK AND THE CHANGING MORAL ZEITGEIST	#6	[url]	[-]
Posts: 220 01/04/07 04:07:09 Ph.D.	*Quote:* Both are written by professed non-believers who demonstrate a reverence for and nuanced understanding of the Bible conspicuously lacking in the contemptuous and dismissive treatment meted out in The God Delusion. I wonder, Fiske, what portions you found contemptuous? I recall you made a post about Dawkins calling the Old Testament God vindictive and cruel, among other things, but as others have mentioned, this is hardly a statement of contempt, but one of bald truth. I also think that perhaps you are missing one of the main points Dawkins is trying to make in this book: that religion is afforded too much respect and that criticisms which would seem merely to be bald truth-telling in other contexts are made out to seem vile, contemptuous, and slanderous in religious contexts. One need not respect something to critique it. If I were writing a book on Nazism, I hardly doubt anyone would call it "unscholarly" to view the atrocities committed by that group with contempt, or even to call those who ordered the atrocities "monsters" and other no-doubt cruel names. For more resources on why heated passion and scholarship are not mutually exclusive, see any number of Nietzche's aphorisms on the topic.
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Thinker102	Re: Ch. 7 - THE 'GOOD' BOOK AND THE CHANGING MORAL ZEITGEIST	#7	[url]	[-]
Posts: 16 01/04/07 04:36:59 I can vote now! Yeah!	Christians often have great difficulty facing up to some of the nastier logical aspects of their religion. A question that gets asked of christians now and again on CF (usually referencing the slaughters ordered by God in the OT, and the near sacrifice of Issac): `If God directly commanded you to do so, would you kill somebody in cold blood?' Most christians respond to that one with evasions, along the lines of `we are supposed to test the spirits' (make sure it is really God) or `God is love and would never command me to do something so evil'. The few that do answer the question directly almost always respond in the affirmative - for to say no is to `sin' by disobeying God. Note that these tend to be `bible believing christians'. Then there is the `hell' issue - another instance where many christians have great difficulty facing up to the logical consequences of their beliefs. One of the items brought up fairly often (but apparently not covered by Dawkins) is the `religiously split' family: one or more members of the family is a born again saved christian - but their spouse or parent or offspring are not. Despite this they care for each other very much. The notion that their `unsaved' family members will by christian logic be subject to `hell' (of which there are several competing models, all backed by `scripture') is very deeply disturbing to the christians. Another hell related bit pertains to what might be termed `personal helplessness': the christian finds the notion of hell for most unbelievers to be deeply disturbing, but God decreed it, so that is the way it is - you can't really rally against it without it costing you your salvation. At the other end of the spectrum, we have some sorts who make Asana appear to be reasonable and flexible. These are the `reformed' - protestants of an extreme sort, along with hypercalvinists. Their creed is that God is a God of vengance first and foremost, and that Gods chosen followers will revel in the unending destruction God hands out to all unbelievers. (taking delight in divine torture, which to me seems rather sick). Even most of the other christian posters make the comment there is no real difference between this God and the Devil. I think I've derailed things enough to get myself in trouble here so I'd better quit.
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misterpessimistic	Re: Ch. 7 - THE 'GOOD' BOOK AND THE CHANGING MORAL ZEITGEIST	#8	[url]	[-]
Indisputable BookTalk Master Posts: 4113 01/14/07 10:15:05 Indisputable BookTalk Master	Fiske says: *Quote:* Yes, arguments about the existence of God are philosophical in nature which doesn't stop a lot of people on either side of the issue from insisting on ultimate truth when they have no real proof to offer. No, the main point here and the problem that Dawkins, others and I like to point out is that god is a created concept. There IS no evidence for the existence of any god (and there is MUCH evidence that it is simply another myth created by humans) while a naturalistic POV has at least much good evidence that we have found through our available means. We can ponder anything we like, I grant that, but that does not give any sort of credibility or grant any verisimilitude to those ponderings. I just finished this chapter and some of the bible quotes about fathers giving their daughters up for rape and then cutting up their bodies...or daughters getting their father drunk and fucking him to get pregnant (sorry if my choice of words offends...lol) are quite disgusting and vile. Maybe thats how things were back then, but in that case, maybe we should leave the bible back in those days as well. But please...how am I lacking in biblical scholarship when I read these sentences? How am I missing the point of the value that the bible brings to our species? Please...someone explain this to me now. Because Dawkins is looking mighty right in my eyes about the need to leave this ancient fairy tale in the past...despite his failure to properly quote sources. Mr. P. Mr. P's place. I warned you!!! Mr. P's Bookshelf. I'm not saying it's usual for people to do those things but I(with the permission of God) have raised a dog from the dead and healed many people from all sorts of ailments. - Asana The one thing of which I am positive is that there is much of which to be negative - Mr. P. The pain in hell has two sides. The kind you can touch with your hand; the kind you can feel in your heart...Scorsese's "Mean Streets" I came to kick ass and chew Bubble Gum...and I am all out of Bubble Gum - They Live, Roddy Piper
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garicker	Re: Ch. 7 - THE 'GOOD' BOOK AND THE CHANGING MORAL ZEITGEIST	#9	[url]	[-]
Posts: 262 01/16/07 21:20:29 Smarty Pants	The central point of this chapter is simply that the "good" book really isn't all that good. In fact, as a guide for human morality, it's pretty bad, especially so if one thinks it actually is the divinely authored or inspired word of the "One True God." When the Bible is understood as a collection of stories and myths, then it has some utility and some value. These are our efforts to explain ourselves to ourselves--not just biblical myths but all myths. But once myth becomes enshrined as "The Truth" from which there can be no deviation, then it becomes a destructive force. And it's not at all beside the point that Dawkins reminds us of some of the horrors in the "good" book. I can promise you that many Christians haven't understood what happened to Lot and his daughters, or seriously reflected on the story of Job, or even read much of the book on which their religion is based. That's because most Christians, when they read the Bible at all, read through the filters of sermons and apologetics. Penn Gillette, in one episode of the TV series "Bullshit," urged viewers to "read your Bibles, we need more atheists." I can't fault Dawkins for not being more respectful about the Bible. I agree with Thomas Paine, who wrote in The Age of Reason: "Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and torturous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness, with which more than half the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent that we called it the word of a demon than the Word of God. It is a history of wickedness that has served to corrupt and brutalize mankind." Of course, Paine was speaking mostly about the Old Testament. But let's not forget there are many people (and a frightening number of them live here in the United States) who still regard the Old Testament as the infallible word of the "One True God." George "Godlessness is not about denying the existence of nonsensical beings. It is the starting point for living life without them." Godless in America by George A. Ricker
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MadArchitect	Re: Ch. 7 - THE 'GOOD' BOOK AND THE CHANGING MORAL ZEITGEIST	#10	[url]	[-]
Posts: 3169 01/18/07 15:30:21 Indisputable BookTalk Master	garicker: When the Bible is understood as a collection of stories and myths, then it has some utility and some value. These are our efforts to explain ourselves to ourselves--not just biblical myths but all myths. I think the "Rationalists" (as the term is being applied to Dawkins and the like-minded) put a little too much stock in the idea that religion is supposed to explain something. One of the leading theories of myth in anthropological research is that it is almost always linked to rite and ritual. That is to say, that myth doesn't explain anything, but rather, that it provides a framework and a pattern for types of behavior that are, within some context, meaningful.
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garicker	Re: Ch. 7 - THE 'GOOD' BOOK AND THE CHANGING MORAL ZEITGEIST	#11	[url]	[-]
Posts: 262 01/18/07 20:19:02 Smarty Pants	Mad: "One of the leading theories of myth in anthropological research is that it is almost always linked to rite and ritual. That is to say, that myth doesn't explain anything, but rather, that it provides a framework and a pattern for types of behavior that are, within some context, meaningful." I don't think that's necessarily incompatible with what I'm saying. I think in providing the context for rites and other types of behavior that is meaningful, the myths developed in various cultures grounded the meanings of those rites and behaviors. In other words, they helped the people in the cultures understand why the rites and behaviors were meaningful and important. So when I say myth is us attempting to explain ourselves to ourselves that's what I mean. That said, could you point me in the direction of a reference, something basic for a layman, that espouses the view of myth you mention here? Thanks, George "Godlessness is not about denying the existence of nonsensical beings. It is the starting point for living life without them." Godless in America by George A. Ricker
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MadArchitect	Re: Ch. 7 - THE 'GOOD' BOOK AND THE CHANGING MORAL ZEITGEIST	#12	[url]	[-]
Posts: 3169 01/23/07 15:12:18 Indisputable BookTalk Master	garicker: That said, could you point me in the direction of a reference, something basic for a layman, that espouses the view of myth you mention here? Something for a layman? I'm not sure what I would consider an accessible text would be accessible to others -- so much depends upon what you've already read and what you feel comfortable reading. A few names that spring to mind are F.M. Cornford, Mircea Eliade, and E.E. Evans-Wentz. All three have written widely, and I'm sure you can find books that each have written for a less specialized audience. If I think about it later on, I'll try to dig up some specific titles.
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garicker	Re: Ch. 7 - THE 'GOOD' BOOK AND THE CHANGING MORAL ZEITGEIST	#13	[url]	[-]
Posts: 262 01/23/07 20:15:05 Smarty Pants	Mad: Something for a layman? I'm not sure what I would consider an accessible text would be accessible to others -- so much depends upon what you've already read and what you feel comfortable reading. A few names that spring to mind are F.M. Cornford, Mircea Eliade, and E.E. Evans-Wentz. All three have written widely, and I'm sure you can find books that each have written for a less specialized audience. If I think about it later on, I'll try to dig up some specific titles. Thanks. George "Godlessness is not about denying the existence of nonsensical beings. It is the starting point for living life without them." Godless in America by George A. Ricker
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ginof	Re: Ch. 7 - THE 'GOOD' BOOK AND THE CHANGING MORAL ZEITGEIST	#14	[url]	[-]
Posts: 207 03/03/07 02:41:29 Ph.D.	fiske *Quote:* He even goes so far as to suggest that Pat Robertson is "typical of those who today hold power and influence in the United States." I'm pretty sure that until recently, he and fawell had at least weekly con calls with Karl Rove. My guess is that fawell still does.
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Lion of Lannister	Re: Ch. 7 - THE 'GOOD' BOOK AND THE CHANGING MORAL ZEITGEIST	#15	[url]	[-]
Posts: 6 03/17/07 17:43:51 A Breath of Fresh Air	This is one of the best chapters in the book. It is hilarious, and also extremely sad at the same time, that so many people say they believe a book is 100% true and straight from god, and yet they never bother to pick it up and actually read it to find out what this ultimate truth they supposedly have actually consists of. There's a very good reason for it, though, and that is because as soon as you pick up the Bible and start actually reading it, you realize that it is morally abhorrent. Dawkins is not the first intellectual to actually read the Bible and point out the many glaring examples of completely horrifying acts this loathesome conception of god carries out. Gang rape, mass murder of children, and genocide are just the beginning. And yet people are so ignorant they actually don't know or care about this, and continue going around supporting the book they've never actually read. I don't know whether to laugh or cry at the folly of our human race. Your brain is there to be used, please, Christians, pick up the book you say you believe is true and actually read it for once, and see how horrifying it is. Anyone who _actually_ believed in the Bible would be sent to prison for murder.
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Niall001	Re: Ch. 7 - THE 'GOOD' BOOK AND THE CHANGING MORAL ZEITGEIST	#16	[url]	[-]
Posts: 897 03/17/07 19:33:42 Smarty Pants	No offense, but given that you pride yourself on being a Lannister, I'll take your thoughts on morality with a pinch of salt? Shag any sisters recently? Full of Porn* http://plainofpillars.blogspot.com
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Lion of Lannister	Re: Ch. 7 - THE 'GOOD' BOOK AND THE CHANGING MORAL ZEITGEIST	#17	[url]	[-]
Posts: 6 03/17/07 23:59:13 A Breath of Fresh Air	According to the bible, sister-fucking is approved of by god. How else could the world have been populated from Adam and Eve? The Bible also teaches that intermarrying with heathens is a sin, because even touching one will taint you. That's why Joshua and Moses were big into killing every last living thing when they sacked a city, instead of just killing the men and taking the women as sex slaves which was most common in that time (although the Bible describes and approves of this as well, in different sections of it). This limiting of genetic diversity to one tribe only for so many generations no doubt involved a lot of incest. Anyway, if you take the idea that gang-rape and child killing is bad with a pinch of salt I'm not sure what to tell you. Obviously the truth is everyone agrees with these convictions. Despite this people say the bible is a true and moral book. The only explanation is its adherants never actually read it, which just blows my mind. If I thought a book contained the absolute truth of the universe, reading it would be pretty high on my to-do list.
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misterpessimistic	Re: Ch. 7 - THE 'GOOD' BOOK AND THE CHANGING MORAL ZEITGEIST	#18	[url]	[-]
Indisputable BookTalk Master Posts: 4113 03/26/07 15:34:37 Indisputable BookTalk Master	I still come back to the content of the bible and wonder why some of these things, as the Lannister mentions, are doing there. Even if we accept that the things written about were issues of the time...why do Christians of modern times accept this book as the word of god? Why do we not REVISE the bible if it is to be a book one bases their worldview on? Much is made of the longevity and far reach of the bible through time. It is the most published book we hear, it is a book that has influenced (been forced upon) many other people and cultures. Are we just clinging to something that is an unchanging link to a past that we recognize as leading directly to our modern times? Why is the bible the only book not needing revisions when science texts are constantly revised? Mr. P. I'm not saying it's usual for people to do those things but I(with the permission of God) have raised a dog from the dead and healed many people from all sorts of ailments. - Asana Boditharta (former booktalk troll) The one thing of which I am positive is that there is much of which to be negative - Mr. P. What is all this shit about Angels? Have you heard this? 3 out of 4 people believe in Angels. Are you F****** STUPID? Has everybody lost their mind? - George Carlin I came to kick ass and chew Bubble Gum...and I am all out of Bubble Gum - They Live, Roddy Piper
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MadArchitect	Re: Ch. 7 - THE 'GOOD' BOOK AND THE CHANGING MORAL ZEITGEIST	#19	[url]	[-]
Posts: 3169 03/28/07 20:11:31 Indisputable BookTalk Master	misterpessimistic: I still come back to the content of the bible and wonder why some of these things, as the Lannister mentions, are doing there. Canonization is a weird thing, but you can at least look at it this way: if some of these books weren't part of the Bible, they likely wouldn't have survived to this day, and then we'd have very little evidence of the process through which Judaism and Christianity arrived at their current state. That is to say, even if most Christians aren't looking at it that way, the Bible provides its own basis for historical comparison. Why is the bible the only book not needing revisions when science texts are constantly revised? The Bible is constantly under revision. There's a whole field of scholarship, embracing linguistics, archaeology, text comparison and history that is constantly revising the text of the Bible and issuing scholarly works about the development of the text.
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garicker	Re: Ch. 7 - THE 'GOOD' BOOK AND THE CHANGING MORAL ZEITGEIST	#20	[url]	[-]
Posts: 262 03/29/07 11:06:09 Smarty Pants	Mad: The Bible is constantly under revision. There's a whole field of scholarship, embracing linguistics, archaeology, text comparison and history that is constantly revising the text of the Bible and issuing scholarly works about the development of the text. Unfortunately, most of the scholarship never quite seems to make it to the great mass of Christian believers, many of whom have no idea of how much of what they believe to be true about the biblical narrative is totally unsupported by that scholarship. In his introduction to Secret Origins of the Bible, author Tim Callahan notes that most of the material contained therein is no secret to students of the Bible but will come as a great shock to the majority of Christians, who are woefully ignorant of the book on which they claim to place so much importance. The understanding of the Bible that exists in academia, especially in the more advanced schools, is a far cry from the understanding of the Bible that exists in the world of the average believer in one of the Christian sects. Out here where the rubber meets the road, things get downright, dare I say it, primitive. George "Godlessness is not about denying the existence of nonsensical beings. It is the starting point for living life without them." Godless in America by George A. Ricker
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